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-   -   Suspension for V8 swap (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=356641)

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 01:46 PM

Suspension for V8 swap
 
My 264 GL diesel (or, 244 GL D6) with a 1989 Mustang 5.0L is still rocking the stock suspension. The original owner changed out the shocks to KYB units which don't handle the stiffer diesel springs too well. It's actually a bit iffy on the road. The suspension has to be done.

I'm curious what set-up other V8 swap guys are using. Also, how does the Iron Windosr V8 effect weight transfer and balance compared to a regular red bock four banger? I can find optimum spring rate front/rear rate bias for four bangers, but not for a V8.

To be clear, I am aiming for actual performance for street and track use. Not "stance" suspension.

I'm thinking about Kaplhenke front suspension but, I have no clue what spring length and spring rate, or even what f/r bias to go with on this V8 car.

Thanks

740atl 08-30-2020 02:07 PM

My buddies 242 is rocking stock suspension with a 5.0 and it handles fine. In fact the shocks and struts were the cheapest we could find... Monroes from rockauto. What’s the condition of the suspension bushings? Especially the rear trailing arm bushings, rear torque rod and front (rear) control arm bushings. If they’re shot the car will handle like a drunk pushing a wheelbarrow.

culberro 08-30-2020 02:19 PM

On my 5.0 244 I use:
Bilstein HD struts in the front with 250 lb/in springs, 12” long. I’m also using BNE Select top mounts and KL Racing extended control arms.
Rear are cut down wagon overload springs (Moog CC217... I think), and Gabriel Ultra rear shocks.
Front bar is ~28mm, no rear bar.
Front toe is set at 0
Camber is -2.5 to -3 most days
Caster is 7deg

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 740atl (Post 6109662)
My buddies 242 is rocking stock suspension with a 5.0 and it handles fine. In fact the shocks and struts were the cheapest we could find... Monroes from rockauto. Whatís the condition of the suspension bushings? Especially the rear trailing arm bushings, rear torque rod and front (rear) control arm bushings. If theyíre shot the car will handle like a drunk pushing a wheelbarrow.

The car only has 80,000 miles on it and, it was an easy 80,000 miles.

740atl 08-30-2020 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverMeat (Post 6109686)
The car only has 80,000 miles on it and, it was an easy 80,000 miles.

Well if that means that the bushings on a 30 year old car are still good and not your problem then super.

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 740atl (Post 6109687)
Well if that means that the bushings on a 30 year old car are still good and not your problem then super.

It went through an inspection, they are good. The mechanic just noted “It handles like a ‘65 Cadillac Fleetwood”. He knows my idea of “handling” is different then others. lol. To some, that’s ok. I like a car that can go around corners. Both kinds - left and right.

Redwood Chair 08-30-2020 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverMeat (Post 6109659)
My 264 GL diesel (or, 244 GL D6) with a 1989 Mustang 5.0L is still rocking the stock suspension. The original owner changed out the shocks to KYB units which don't handle the stiffer diesel springs too well. It's actually a bit iffy on the road. The suspension has to be done.

I'm curious what set-up other V8 swap guys are using. Also, how does the Iron Windosr V8 effect weight transfer and balance compared to a regular red bock four banger? I can find optimum spring rate front/rear rate bias for four bangers, but not for a V8.

To be clear, I am aiming for actual performance for street and track use. Not "stance" suspension.

I'm thinking about Kaplhenke front suspension but, I have no clue what spring length and spring rate, or even what f/r bias to go with on this V8 car.

Thanks


Whelp it's going to handle like sheet warmed over with a big lump of 'merican iron in the nose.

JohnMc 08-30-2020 06:47 PM

I have an aluminum 5.3 and a Nissan 6 spd manual in my 240. I never weighed it with the redblock 16V/T5 trans setup, but just based on ride height and general handling, I really don't think the alu V8 added much weight at all.

IPD lowering spring, Bilstein HD's, 17X7 wheels and 225/40/17 tires.

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood Chair (Post 6109696)
Whelp it's going to handle like sheet warmed over with a big lump of 'merican iron in the nose.

From my calculations with the transmission it’s only ~200lbs heavier up front... it’s probably less than that because I don’t have A/C. That’s not all that hard to compensate for. Essentially it’s the same weight as the D24 that came out of it.

Replacing the battery with a light weight unit and relocating it to the trunk will take ~45lbs from the front and add ~15lbs to the rear.

After that stuff gets expensive.

283SD 08-30-2020 07:33 PM

I have an old school 350 Chevy in my wagon [installed in 10/88]. I drove for a year with the stock suspension, worked and looked fine. Bought lowering springs from IPD in'90 when I make it the two door, put in KYB shocks at the time they were OK, the 1" rear sway bar was the best ride changer. Changed the shocks to Koni sport adjust. It's a whole new car to drive. P/S the V8 added 70 lbs over the stock weight,alum intake and water pump, tube headers vs CI etc. Got to drive it on the Watkins Glen street course [closed to traffic] behind a GT1 Corvette and an A/C Cobra. That was a blast, a story for another time.

Redwood Chair 08-30-2020 07:46 PM

https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights2.html

2turbotoys 08-30-2020 07:57 PM

Ask them at Kaplhenke, they make and use the stuff and can pick out what you need.

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2turbotoys (Post 6109710)
Ask them at Kaplhenke, they make and use the stuff and can pick out what you need.

Still waiting for a reply.

I think I'll need a set of corner scales so I can calculate the right f/r rate bias by cross-referencing with 244 Turbos.

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood Chair (Post 6109707)

Dry, complete, short block, long block?

mikep 08-30-2020 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by culberro (Post 6109670)
On my 5.0 244 I use:
Bilstein HD struts in the front with 250 lb/in springs, 12Ē long. Iím also using BNE Select top mounts and KL Racing extended control arms.
Rear are cut down wagon overload springs (Moog CC217... I think), and Gabriel Ultra rear shocks.
Front bar is ~28mm, no rear bar.
Front toe is set at 0
Camber is -2.5 to -3 most days
Caster is 7deg

Start there, but if youíre worried about money forget the control arms. If you want to keep the stock front bar, use 300# front springs. And since 28mm is huuuge and heavy, look for a 25mm or a turbo front bar (22-23mm) used.
A stock wagon rear bar can help balance things. I prefer more rear spring Than an overload, but i donít have a v8.
IF you plan on drag racing, a big rear bar will help keep the right rear down. If corners are more Your style, more spring less bar in rear.
Also, a lower chassis brace helps a lot.

BeaverMeat 08-30-2020 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikep (Post 6109722)
Start there, but if youíre worried about money forget the control arms. If you want to keep the stock front bar, use 300# front springs. And since 28mm is huuuge and heavy, look for a 25mm or a turbo front bar (22-23mm) used.
A stock wagon rear bar can help balance things. I prefer more rear spring Than an overload, but i donít have a v8.
IF you plan on drag racing, a big rear bar will help keep the right rear down. If corners are more Your style, more spring less bar in rear.
Also, a lower chassis brace helps a lot.

It already has a iPD sway up front. Donít know the size as the car is still on the truck making the 1200 mile journey to my driveway.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...42d6e358_c.jpg

Redwood Chair 08-30-2020 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverMeat (Post 6109714)
Dry, complete, short block, long block?

Probably long block dry IE: engine weight.

2manyturbos 08-31-2020 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood Chair (Post 6109696)
Whelp it's going to handle like sheet warmed over with a big lump of 'merican iron in the nose.

Wrong. It won't make squat difference. The redblock is no lightweight. My old school 327/TH400 swap into my 1975 242 with B20 gained 150 lb. I weighed the car before and after on a local truck scale.

Broke4speed 08-31-2020 07:20 PM

I find the position over the front wheels is a bigger change in handling. The B6304 I put in my 244 was quite long, and the car definitely felt nosey on a 21mm bar, IPD springs (1 coil removed), and KYB GR2s.

blkaplan 09-01-2020 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverMeat (Post 6109713)
Still waiting for a reply.

I think I'll need a set of corner scales so I can calculate the right f/r rate bias by cross-referencing with 244 Turbos.

Did you get a reply?

Sometimes messages can fall through the cracks.

BeaverMeat 09-01-2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2manyturbos (Post 6109912)
Wrong. It won't make squat difference. The redblock is no lightweight. My old school 327/TH400 swap into my 1975 242 with B20 gained 150 lb. I weighed the car before and after on a local truck scale.

Yeah, my calculations were wrong. The 5.0L and T-5 swap from an 1989 Mustang only adds closer to 100lbs, not 200lbs. It's within 11lbs of the D24 it replaced.

No big deal. This must be the reason for the 302 swap popularity in the 80s-90s. Today itís the LS. I have buddy thatís been buying up all the junked 05-07 GM extended cabs he can find for the relatively cheap all aluminum L33s. Probably the best bang-for-buck LS you can find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broke4speed (Post 6109964)
I find the position over the front wheels is a bigger change in handling. The B6304 I put in my 244 was quite long, and the car definitely felt nosey on a 21mm bar, IPD springs (1 coil removed), and KYB GR2s.

I reckon an inline-6 is usually longitudinally larger than any inline-4 or V8. It's to be expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkaplan (Post 6110133)
Did you get a reply?

Sometimes messages can fall through the cracks.

I did the "RE:" trick

asilomar244 09-20-2020 04:24 PM

I have an LT1/T56 using the JTR crossmember. Had to do an aluminum racing radiator to keep it running cool. All of that together probably adds 150-200 lbs to the front axle.

I've done what I think would be considered a medium grade suspension build:
TME lowering springs
iPd sway bars, poly bushings
Bilstein shocks
TrueTrac LSD in 1031 3.73 rear end
Adjustable panhard and torque rods with poly
Cherry Turbos strut mount brace
iPd upper and lower chassis braces
OEM but replaced inner/outer tie rods and lower ball joints
OEM but replaced strut mounts

Currently dealing with failed rubber bushing in rear trailing arms (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=356743), upgrading the rear trailing arm bushings to poly now.

So this suspension setup is pretty good but the car understeers which is annoying. So I would like to get full adjustable with a Kalpehnke setup eventually but that is $$$.

redblockpowered 09-20-2020 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asilomar244 (Post 6114919)
I have an LT1/T56 using the JTR crossmember. Had to do an aluminum racing radiator to keep it running cool. All of that together probably adds 150-200 lbs to the front axle.

I've done what I think would be considered a medium grade suspension build:
TME lowering springs
iPd sway bars, poly bushings
Bilstein shocks
TrueTrac LSD in 1031 3.73 rear end
Adjustable panhard and torque rods with poly
Cherry Turbos strut mount brace
iPd upper and lower chassis braces
OEM but replaced inner/outer tie rods and lower ball joints
OEM but replaced strut mounts

Currently dealing with failed rubber bushing in rear trailing arms (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=356743), upgrading the rear trailing arm bushings to poly now.

So this suspension setup is pretty good but the car understeers which is annoying. So I would like to get full adjustable with a Kalpehnke setup eventually but that is $$$.

Understeers under what circumstances?

2manyturbos 09-20-2020 07:16 PM

+1. I would ask you to define under steer with regard to this particular car.

asilomar244 09-20-2020 09:39 PM

It loses steering and pushes as it reaches the limit. Throttle on with LSD rear end help to compensate but not enough to overcome it.


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