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Tuning MBT

Seriously?


If every point is optimized, then the less throttle/map you need to to keep the car moving forward, this includes cruise and is therefore also the tuning method that will give best fuel economy and nice cruise.

Surely you can accept that the timing that makes the best torque is making the best use out of the volume of fuel injected. That inherently makes driveability good.

Neutering the ignition map intentially to tyr to improve part throttle response makes no sense.

Well, its obvious that my English skilz aren't good enough to tell what I mean, what I'm trying to say is that if you hit the max torque at any given point your torque curve will be "bumpy", it goes up and down, how much, that depends what you have under your hood. Thats why oem people tend to reduce engines "natural" power at some points, to give it character they (and the customers)want.
One, rough example: stock redblock with stock garret, when you beat the crap out of it it will give maximum hp way under 5000, dies after that, that feels like diesel to drive, stresses your engine and drivetrain. That is what I'm trying to say here. If you reduce output at midrange by altering ignition, afr, boost and such and set the max hp point at 6000, how does it feel to drive then?

One likes mother, one likes daughter.

Surely best possible timing will give you best possible economy.
 
Is there something about my way of typing that is hard to understand?
i understand, and i'm not surprised about the "find knock then back it off" tunning(that's prolly how i'll do it), and poi has it right

2 hour drive (and know what tow company you can call)! It's so trivial once you get on a load dyno, there's no other method that makes any sense.

it seems like this is the best/only way other than yanking the motor and doing it at the flywheel

good luck though, i hope you figure it out and get it where you are happy with it

jason
 
Guys, i apologize - this car is giving me a serious case of boost blue balls and it's making me grouchy. :rofl:

In reality my argument is stupid- if I kill it on the dyno, getting it home will be the least of my worries. :-D

Ironicaly though I found a place that is pretty close- 20-30min away that has a dynapack that will do variable ramp, fixed load, etc so that is great.

Going to try to book it some time this week. :x:
 
Good luck for the dynotuningtime, and don't forget to give us indepth FULL analyze out of it too. :)
 
Well, its obvious that my English skilz aren't good enough to tell what I mean, what I'm trying to say is that if you hit the max torque at any given point your torque curve will be "bumpy", it goes up and down, how much, that depends what you have under your hood. Thats why oem people tend to reduce engines "natural" power at some points, to give it character they (and the customers)want.
One, rough example: stock redblock with stock garret, when you beat the crap out of it it will give maximum hp way under 5000, dies after that, that feels like diesel to drive, stresses your engine and drivetrain. That is what I'm trying to say here. If you reduce output at midrange by altering ignition, afr, boost and such and set the max hp point at 6000, how does it feel to drive then?

One likes mother, one likes daughter.

Surely best possible timing will give you best possible economy.

You must also here consider that your example is not very mother to daughter..
The reason the redblock dies on early RPM, is:
Camshaft
OEM Turbo
Piping

It's not due to the mapping in the EZK :-)

When it comes to the b6304, it is a different story.. While a lot is to be had on piping there too, this engine has been "smoothened" so it shouldnt be like a ketchup bottle.

However, it's not really the same as the spark setting though, as the point here was that some times not always advancing is better for power, same goes for emissions.

If you see the tuning for emissions in the megasquirt manual, you see a table of examples.
However, that applies to engine X, not the volvo engines :-)
 
Load cell tuning is pretty much the way it's done here. Tune every site for a complete map. The us seems to be more run up for max power and forget about the rest of the map
 
Load cell tuning is pretty much the way it's done here. Tune every site for a complete map. The us seems to be more run up for max power and forget about the rest of the map

Not exactly, most understand the concept of area under the curve quite well. VE, MBT, Steady state dyno, and cell tuning are all very common in the US. I asked POI many months ago how he wanted to tune his bumpercooler, and he stated steady state to tune per cel. Seemed amazingly logical to me.

CHeers

PJ
 
Not exactly, most understand the concept of area under the curve quite well. VE, MBT, Steady state dyno, and cell tuning are all very common in the US


It's pretty common knowlege that the rototest/dynapack etc dynos with torque holding and variable ramp contorl are proportionally more common in europe versus inertia only dynos, when compared to the US, that's what I believe he meant. And it's true.
 
It's pretty common knowlege that the rototest/dynapack etc dynos with torque holding and variable ramp contorl are proportionally more common in europe versus inertia only dynos, when compared to the US, that's what I believe he meant. And it's true.

you know you should live over here rather than over there - i'd split the cost of dyno time with you if it made for some awesome maps.

actually, i'd probably do that anyways ... hmm, let me know if you are going to try to do this in the near future :)
 
you know you should live over here rather than over there - i'd split the cost of dyno time with you if it made for some awesome maps.

actually, i'd probably do that anyways ... hmm, let me know if you are going to try to do this in the near future :)

Dude, no kidding, not to mention how interesting it would be to have the 2 fairly similar setups running side by side on the same dyno on the same day and noting the differences.

It will be near future- I want to say within the week but I bet it takes 2. You know how it goes whenit comes to logistics of insurance and booking the dyno and taking time off work and blah blah blah...
 
the reason inertial dynos are so popular is because they cost, generally, 1/2 what a loading dyno costs. When you start adding awd and things of that nature to them, they get a little closer, but as a general rule, small shops aren't going to plunk down 60k when they can cater to 95% of their clientel by spending 30k. if you really wanted to get down to brass tacks, you'd be best served on an engine dyno for a couple of hours.
 
. if you really wanted to get down to brass tacks, you'd be best served on an engine dyno for a couple of hours.

Eh not nearly as practial as a dyno with a load cell. The amount gained vs. the amount of hassle is hard to justify for a street car. Even if you drag the entire exhaust system along with you, along with the complete cooling setup as to be installed, you'll still need a re map once it's in the car, especially since you don't have a model of any of the drivetrain dynamics.

Tuning it steady state won't take more than 2 hours, so we're talking 300-400 bucks max and 2 hours to know that the tune is right. Seems like the wya to go.

as was said, with a load cell, tuning is trivial.
 
Please excuse my white block ignorance (and partial thread jacking), but I'm trying to become marginally less ignorant before I consider tackling my own T-5 conversion. Yes I do own the car in my signature, but it's my wife's low mileage stocker that she doesn't want me dorking with, so I dunno much about it.

This may not even be an issue for some of you (Your Name Here if you have a HEALTHY RUNNING modified white block in your car, stock rods or otherwise), but what's the deal with people complaining about the factory ECU throwing in too much advance at low RPM's and that leading to bent rods? The concept doesn't entirely make sense to me unless you're talking about low RPM pulls in high gears, which logically sounds like maximum rod load. Am I correct in assuming that the optimized cylinder pressure generated by MBT/cell tuning is less abusive on the rods than the factory timing curves?

The other question (and again, please excuse my whiteblock newbness), is about the variable cam timing that I know some white blocks have. Do any of you have it, keep it, or nuke it, and if you nuked it (and I know a lot of you have), how did you choose where to set the cam timing? If you kept it, how well do either MS or VEMS run it for you?

Any and all feedback from people with real world experience here please chime in - I'd much rather read up-front than make mental notes while I look for my rods by the road-side.
 
Am I correct in assuming that the optimized cylinder pressure generated by MBT/cell tuning is less abusive on the rods than the factory timing curves?

Dude, that is 100% exactly right and exactly why I made this thread, and is exactly why I care so much about insuring this is done as correctly as possible.:cheers:

The goal is that you are applying combustion pressure to the piston at the correct crank angle in order to be able to convert that pressure into torque on the crankshaft.

If you apply it too early, and the piston/crank assembly is at a poor angle, then that force is wasted. You make less power and you make the piston/rod take the brunt of all that force.

So, you make less power, AND put more strain on the bottom end. Double failboat.

Between this concept and greatly decreased exhaust pressure via header, exhaust and larger turbine housing/wheel (improved EBR), the HOPE is that the "ceiling" in terms of what a set of stock whiteblocks rods will handle will be increased dramatically.

It seems fishy that whiteblocks bend rods so easily when we are seeing S2000 motors making 700hp on stock internals, and bone stock VR6 motors making 450+whp with just a turbo and some tuning software.

And we're killing motors that actually come turbo from the factory and have 8.5:1 compression with a 100hp increase over stock?

I can't help but think we're doing it wrong. Hopefully I can prove this with my motor, otherwise it will be an expensive miscalculation on my part. :rofl:

The other question (and again, please excuse my whiteblock newbness), is about the variable cam timing that I know some white blocks have. Do any of you have it, keep it, or nuke it, and if you nuked it (and I know a lot of you have), how did you choose where to set the cam timing? If you kept it, how well do either MS or VEMS run it for you?

This is a bit of an experimental area still IMO, Justin ("Kildea") has been playing with it, and Peter L ("Yeah, Right") has been investigating it as well.

Mine is currently just disconnected (cam stays fully retarded) I likely won't mess with it unless there is something deficient enough with my torque curve to prompt me to.

Thus far the torque curve is retardedly nice as is- so I suspect I will leave it until I source some hotter cams.
 
It seems fishy that whiteblocks bend rods so easily when we are seeing S2000 motors making 700hp on stock internals, and bone stock VR6 motors making 450+whp with just a turbo and some tuning software.
Well there's no reason the stock rods just happen to be much weaker. The swedes have been pretty conclusive about this--****loads of power just need beefier rods.
 
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