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Old 05-29-2020, 10:22 PM   #1
dpsubzero
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Default 16v n/a intake setup.

Hello people,

This is my first post here and for the first time i'd like to ask your help with something.

I've got a Volvo 240 with a few mods done to the car.
Currently the car is n/a with a modified 16v head. The car was about to be tuned a week ago but it had some issues with the intake manifold. The manifold i use is from kl racing. With this manifold the air doesnt distribute evenly in the four runners which makes the car near impossible to tune.

To solve this issue i thought about making some itb's but unfortunately its kinda rare to see it on these cars, so there's not a lot of info on it. Does anyone have some tips for me or perhaps an alternative route i could take?

If needed i could post the mods done to the head.
I hope somebody will be able to help.

Thanks
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:26 AM   #2
90volvo
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some pics would help and more info. Im sure someone can help you but they will want details and look at your current setup.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:45 AM   #3
fastcomet
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is this your intake? https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artiklar...spjallhus.html
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpsubzero View Post
The manifold i use is from kl racing. With this manifold the air doesnt distribute evenly in the four runners which makes the car near impossible to tune.
Why are you so certain your tuning issue is caused by the intake manifold?
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:41 AM   #5
dpsubzero
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Originally Posted by fastcomet View Post
Correct
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:43 AM   #6
dpsubzero
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Originally Posted by Sjeng View Post
Why are you so certain your tuning issue is caused by the intake manifold?
2 spark plugs were wet. Cylinder 3 and 4. I'm not gonna pretend i know all the details but i trust my tuner with this one.
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:12 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by 90volvo View Post
some pics would help and more info. Im sure someone can help you but they will want details and look at your current setup.
Sure thing. Im gonna show a picture of the list in dutch but i'll try to translate it to the best of my abilities.



Exhaust valves 32mm
Inlet valves 37mm
Double valvesprings
N/a exhaust camshaft 238-11.9
N/a inlet camshaft 246-12.5
Adjustable camgears
Head flowed

Performance exhaust manifold
Kl racing intake manifold with 80mm throttle body



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Old 05-30-2020, 07:57 AM   #8
DET17
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Well, a couple observations.

First, I can't imagine you need that giant throttlebody for an NA engine, unless your intent is a high RPM monster at 350hp plus. It is well documented that those large TBs don't help these 4 cylinder engines to idle.

Second, I wouldn't keep that cone filter directly at the TB. Suggest at least two or three diameters of smooth pipe between whatever filtration you choose and that TB. I wouldn't be surprised if the factory NA air filter housing would flow all the air you need. I don't see an AMM, so apparently you are on an aftermarket ECU and not BOSCH.

Third, I suspect a lot of sins in the designs of these custom intakes are remedied by boost. Since you are NA, the "tuning of the intake runners" is quite significant for flow into each cylinder. I believe you would benefit from much longer runners, more in the direction of the B234F factory intake..... shortened the bare minimum to clear your power brake booster.

Good luck!
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:40 PM   #9
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I have used that intake on a couple of NA builds but with a 70mm throttle body and not had that issue. I prefer that intake of the ITB's as I found the low and mid range not so good on them.

The runners are shorter than ideal but as the packaging is very tight it would not be easy to make good long runners in teh space available
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:33 PM   #10
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Other than looking at spark plugs how do you know you have a port biasing issue?
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Well, a couple observations.

First, I can't imagine you need that giant throttlebody for an NA engine, unless your intent is a high RPM monster at 350hp plus. It is well documented that those large TBs don't help these 4 cylinder engines to idle.

Second, I wouldn't keep that cone filter directly at the TB. Suggest at least two or three diameters of smooth pipe between whatever filtration you choose and that TB. I wouldn't be surprised if the factory NA air filter housing would flow all the air you need. I don't see an AMM, so apparently you are on an aftermarket ECU and not BOSCH.

Third, I suspect a lot of sins in the designs of these custom intakes are remedied by boost. Since you are NA, the "tuning of the intake runners" is quite significant for flow into each cylinder. I believe you would benefit from much longer runners, more in the direction of the B234F factory intake..... shortened the bare minimum to clear your power brake booster.

Good luck!
First, thank you for your advice. I have talked to my tuner again and also to the mechanic that built the head. The car is not with me at the moment so i dont have a lot to experiment with.

The tuner told me that the engine has detonation/ping under load. He doesnt suspect the intake to be the main problem anymore. He will try to find out what the current compression is and if its possible to fix the problem by installing a thicker head gasket.

The car had a non modified 16v head before and worked without any issues. The block is not from a b234, but the pistons are.

The tuner has told me that he experimented with different timing. The engine even detonated at 18°. He would like the timing to be at around 28-30°.

Please, if there is any more advice i'll be glad to hear it.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:02 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Other than looking at spark plugs how do you know you have a port biasing issue?
I'm sorry but i'm unable to answer that. The guy that tuned the car told me so. But i have updates on the issue. If you would like to read about it you can see it in my previous reply
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicswede View Post
I have used that intake on a couple of NA builds but with a 70mm throttle body and not had that issue. I prefer that intake of the ITB's as I found the low and mid range not so good on them.

The runners are shorter than ideal but as the packaging is very tight it would not be easy to make good long runners in teh space available
Have you ever had any problems with detonation/ping on modified 16v heads before? You can see updates on the issue in my previous reply if you would like.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpsubzero View Post
I'm sorry but i'm unable to answer that. The guy that tuned the car told me so. But i have updates on the issue. If you would like to read about it you can see it in my previous reply
You may have a base timing problem. Few questions:

1.Has that been confirmed?
2. Did you measure TDC on the engine with a piston stop or a dial indicator?
3 Are you relying on the plastic timing cover to provide you with your most accurate timing measurements?

I run around 28° of advance at around 8000 RPM and .7 bar of boost on my 16v if that helps you with any reference. Static compression is 9:1, dynamic is at 150 psi as it also has fairly aggressive cams.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:09 PM   #15
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I ran 32° of advance (at full load) on a NA 2.5L 16v that was almost 12:1 CR. Something is not right with your setup.

Are you sure the injectors are spraying correctly and flowing the same? I've had pretty poor luck with injectors lately.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:19 PM   #16
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Are you using the stock harmonic balancer and has the outer ring slipped on the rubber, causing the timing to read incorrect? Therefor your base timing is out to lunch.

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Old 06-03-2020, 07:01 AM   #17
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Yes, far too many "unknowns" in this equation. One must KNOW the ignition timing, not assume. As mentioned, neither can one trust injector flow rates.

All part of the due diligence when building a high performance engine.... there can be no guessing, no assumptions.
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:41 AM   #18
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Diffrence in plugs comes from the injectors, Get them cleaned and tested. And to be honest it sounds like your tuner is an idiot. have you confirmed timing with a light?
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Old 10-09-2020, 01:42 AM   #19
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I've been away from the forum for a while, but any update on this? Sounds like it could be a fun setup, if it can be made to work.

To confirm the fueling difference between 1/2 and 3/4, you could swap injectors between those cylinders and recheck.
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