• Hello Guest, welcome to the initial stages of our new platform!
    You can find some additional information about where we are in the process of migrating the board and setting up our new software here

    Thank you for being a part of our community!

Before I accidently set it on fire . . . again.

It hasn't had the filter/ductwork on in my time as daddy. Found it in the trunk.

Ignition timing appears to be good from the crank to the timing gauge. Blue spark at plugs. Fuel seems close. Cranks, runs.

Really haven't devoted much time to this lately. Life is a little demanding at the moment. I'll get it running shortly (he said after 7 years).
 
Spark Timing Advance - This has been tested with hand-held vacuum-pump? Which ignition system was used...Bosch...Pic or OEM-#?

Coil - It must be to OEM specs...81 Rabbit had a fricken hot spark...I put in an aftermarket rotor before taking a trip, and it melted when on a trip to New Mexico, around midnight, some 10 miles away from a town...bummer.

Spark Wires - Again, OEM specs
 
MEGASQUIRT, as has been suggested several times. Tom I think is a purist.... he wants his Model T to run with Henry's design systems in place.

Braver man than I am.....would have ripped off the entire KJet CIS system, and whatever spark the Bertone is using. I think in an earlier thread I read that these engines were later fitted with EFI..... my goodness, I would have gutted the KJet and converted straight away.

Good luck Tom, we keep pulling for you....... I really need to find you when I'm in Blue Ridge next time.
 
Is this the firing order? So on driver side at firewall is number one?

1-6-3-5-2-4

42281e54-da4a-43a4-8805-20372f871cae.jpg
 
Bring me up to speed here: "The most basic of which was a breaker-type ignition using a single distributor with two rotors and two coils for each cylinder bank due to the odd-firing pattern. Timing of the two cylinder banks had to be performed separately. Alternatively, a breakerless distributor system was developed,"

A single coil and rotor...if so, that would be a specific coil that could fully recharge quickly
 
She's a witch. Burn her! We should check to see if she is a witch. See if she floats.

Sure hope you get this thing figured out. Running with no power does seem like the ignition system should be checked for advance.
 
That was an interesting article on the PRV engine.

My '81 is a 2.8L Bosch K-jet, contactless distributor, Lambda controlled version. This combination only lasted a couple years. And yes, almost everything that moves or sparks has been replaced substantially with OEM/Bosch stuff.

And yes, the #1 cylinder is the left rear one. I cannot imagine the time Elroy spent trying to adjust electrical timing. The crank pulley has two timing marks so a knowledgeable technician should be able to time from either #1 or #6. My problem was that I had one of these cars in the mid '80's and understood the timing issue therefore I saw it as all screwed up. So screwed up that I went to the effort to pull the front cover off the engine and verify that the crank/cam/distributor alignment was correct.

When I first checked the timing based on the true #1 cylinder it was set for about 10 degrees after TDC. That was complicated by the fact that the distributor was one tooth off. I don't know if that was just an accident or Elroy was trying to get it in time beyond the adjustment capabilities of the distributor.

Now it has morphed into an experience with a 30 year old grandson currently unemployed due to the covid virus and his employment field associated with sports. Not that he will ever have a need to diagnose a distributor issue but he will be able to say that he has seen one. I told him I would give him my 18 year old Jaguar XK8 if he would help me get the Bertone running and that seems to have provided some motivation.

20191104_180032.jpg


Anyway, this has been truly a retirement hobby project that has provide 7+ years of entertainment. That's why I don't really get frustrated as much as enjoying solving all these incomprehensible problems.

Thanks for your kind attention, support and commiseration.
 
Last edited:
Ignition timing appears to be good...

That video seems to be explicit....no gauge was used in it...just "for your eyes only." He suggested the manual suggested rotating the crank 120? but this seems to be a way to screw the pooch.

Via another vid, I saw a vacuum pot hanging off of distributor that looked Bosch-ish. Timing advance on that V6-PRV-engine's distributor would be done by a metal plate below the rotor that would rotate with changes in vacuum from intake.

With time, the vacuum pot shoots craps, vacuum line is blocked (no vacuum to this pot), Hall sensor's wires are not sending full current to ignition module, and/or the rotating plate is stuck in one position.

In point days, the point's wire going to coil would be broken (open circuit) inside the wire's protective sheathing, due to rotary motions of this plate. ,So, a mechanic could not see this, and the engine may run, and then quit, and then run again.

So, if a hall sensor (or whatever is there) is rotating on a plate via vacuum pot, I can't say how this would affect this type of ignition module that was on my VW Rabbit.

Thus, vacuum pot must rotate that plate, there must be a vacuum line from intake manifold feeding it that works, and if OEM hall sensor is in distributor, it might be wise to get a new one since its wires may be somewhat broken internally.
 
biggest trap ever

Here's how your keep your Jaguar XK8

Hook distributor's vacuum-pot's vacuum-line directly to intake manifold, so when checking timing, timing is at full advance...in effect, there is no timing advance...and car runs like a dog.

In distributors with vacuum pots having a single vacuum line going to this pot, timing at crank is checked by disconnecting the vacuum line to distributor's vacuum-pot at idle RPM.

These engines had ported vacuum and direct intake vacuum ports (like used on brake booster). If direct intake vacuum is hooked to a distributor's pot, it will run like a dog, and not have timing advance.

"Ported vacuum is vacuum that is low at idle and increases as you give it gas. Attached to your distributor it will cause the vacuum advance to move quickly to increase performance and drop off when you let off on the gas for a smoother idle. Ported vacuum is taken from above the throttle plate."
 
That video seems to be explicit....no gauge was used in it...just "for your eyes only." He suggested the manual suggested rotating the crank 120? but this seems to be a way to screw the pooch.

Via another vid, I saw a vacuum pot hanging off of distributor that looked Bosch-ish. Timing advance on that V6-PRV-engine's distributor would be done by a metal plate below the rotor that would rotate with changes in vacuum from intake.

With time, the vacuum pot shoots craps, vacuum line is blocked (no vacuum to this pot), Hall sensor's wires 'Pulse generator' in this distributor... Hall Effect got used in more modern systems. All analog in this one! are not sending full current to ignition module, and/or the rotating plate is stuck in one position.

In point days, the point's wire going to coil would be broken (open circuit) inside the wire's protective sheathing, due to rotary motions of this plate. ,So, a mechanic could not see this, and the engine may run, and then quit, and then run again.

So, if a hall sensor (or whatever is there) is rotating on a plate via vacuum pot, I can't say how this would affect this type of ignition module that was on my VW Rabbit.

Thus, vacuum pot must rotate that plate, there must be a vacuum line from intake manifold feeding it that works, and if OEM hall sensor is in distributor, it might be wise to get a new one since its wires may be somewhat broken internally.

Fixed that for ya.
 
Well yes, understood Commander Cody.

So, it was about 1969 when a friend had his 389 Goat engine rebuilt and pumped up to 12:1 compression; he got the cam gear off one tooth-unknown to him, and since it had no real power, he sold it to a person who figured out how he screwed the pooch. Even when my 1957 Ford's timing chain slipped a tooth, it had lower power. Screwing the timing-chain pooch is old news, btw.

Having bicycle chains on that engine must have some type of tension setup...a spring setup would have more resistance to keeping chain firm than a hydraulic setup via oil pressure. Oil pressure based have been known to cause timing chain to jump a tooth, and on an interference engine, that's all folks.

Chains for this one have metal with plastic slide chain guides for both sides with a ratcheting chain tensioner that is fed oil to tension it. Where chains are set up right... Tom had it apart and verified... That is ruled out.
 
MEGASQUIRT, as has been suggested several times. Tom I think is a purist.... he wants his Model T to run with Henry's design systems in place.

Braver man than I am.....would have ripped off the entire KJet CIS system, and whatever spark the Bertone is using. I think in an earlier thread I read that these engines were later fitted with EFI..... my goodness, I would have gutted the KJet and converted straight away.

Good luck Tom, we keep pulling for you....... I really need to find you when I'm in Blue Ridge next time.

Years ago I gently suggested giving it the even-firing three liter PRV six fitted to an Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco that with simple mods makes 200 horses. Alas; Tom wants her to be bone stock with all the joy(???) that goes along with. Having long since tossed all my PRV stuff.... I can no longer offer bits and pieces. Just unwelcome to unwanted advise to gentle jabs. Carry on!
 
Bring me up to speed here: "The most basic of which was a breaker-type ignition using a single distributor with two rotors and two coils for each cylinder bank due to the odd-firing pattern. Timing of the two cylinder banks had to be performed separately. Alternatively, a breakerless distributor system was developed,"

A single coil and rotor...if so, that would be a specific coil that could fully recharge quickly

In the odd-firing PRV six the odd-firing got accomplished with an odd looking trigger wheel in the distributor.

Which helps me to ponder one....

Tom.... Do recheck that ignition timing is same-same for each bank of cylinders. Because Elroy.
 
Fixed that for ya.

Well thx...as noted, I'm 'blind' with respect to components used. So if we assume mechanical timing (with stock cams) is spot on, and if fuel injectors' measured flow output at some test point is spot on, then consider:

1. Oxidation - All ignition system wiring/plugs must be cleaned up with electrical contact cleaner/etc. Vehicles positive/negative terminals at battery/engine cleaned, along with any grounding straps from engine to firewall/etc. One deceased mechanic I knew rebuilt an outboard marine engine, and oxidation kicked his butt...oxidation was the problem.

2. Bosch Pulse Generator - From Impulse Sender to Power Stage to Coil...all terminals/etc must be cleaned. I'm not familiar with its operation theory, but it needs to be scoped at coil's negative terminal, power stage, and impulse sender. Art might be able to fill electrical tidbits; my concern is if enough dwell time at coil, and consistent dwell pattern exists, is happening on coil, and if a full 12 volts is hooked to coil.

3. Distributor-Crank Timing Advance - Vacuum based timing advance (distributor's pot) must be seen on crank at idle RPM. Vehicles I've worked on with a single vacuum line requires no vacuum on distrib-pot when setting base timing. Timing should not change when vacuum line is reinserted onto distrib-pot at idle if a ported vacuum port is used.
 
Back
Top