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Old 02-12-2020, 01:45 AM   #1
90volvo
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Default methanol injection

Was thinking about installing methanol?water injectiion kit on one of my Volvos.. A 240 8v redblock with 19t-AW71-V cam- Npr. My question is- would there be any gain of running 4 injectors in the intake running vs just of injector in the intake piping? Didnt know if there was any distrubution problems with injector in the piping? Know the intake wasnt designed to carry fuel threw the intake? It would be a bad deal if one cylinder got starved and the rest were heavy drinkers. Whats your thought or Im I making this complicatied. Thanks

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Old 02-12-2020, 03:55 AM   #2
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What justifies the need for that? Won't gain much if anything with your current setup
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:28 AM   #3
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Menthol injection? Your car has bad breath?
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:16 PM   #4
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Heres why...

http://www.turbobricks.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=272115

WMI is a big help for running boost with B230f+T and the LH pinking at tip in.
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by KIM240 View Post
Heres why...

http://www.turbobricks.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=272115

WMI is a big help for running boost with B230f+T and the LH pinking at tip in.
LOL......

yea it helps but read what the op has as a setup.
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:09 PM   #6
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:10 PM   #7
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What justifies the need for that? Won't gain much if anything with your current setup
Where I live we dont have good fuel. I am probably going to run E85 but have considered leaving it on petro and run a WMI. So I can run more boost. But my question was about water/menthol distribution. I have seen LS motors with turbo with the WMI. The back cylinders got most of the mix while front cylinders starved. It was because the manifold was not designed to carry fuel because it was fuel injection. Just curious if anybody had done some research? Ive done alot of searches, and Im not asking if it will help my car. Just something I was thinking about and thought some wisdom here might shine some light on the subject. Thanks
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:19 PM   #8
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A 2 nozzle setup would be good if you spray it in the plenum just before the runners merge. Or you coud go 4 nozzle, but I think you could find a better solution. I'm planning on a 2 nozzle setup, but talking with some colleagues that use strictly WM and no IC, they all thought that one would be fine if runners are located for decent distribution. I'm also running very short piping in comparison to your setup, so... Another idea would be to get a more efficient IC and spray that instead.
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:21 PM   #9
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Well the stock ls intake design feeds the rear cylinders first. A stock b230 intake is completely different. Tuning or e85 will give you alot more of a benefit then water meth imo. I never needed it on any of my redblock cars and I ran them on both pump gas and e85.
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:41 PM   #10
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I ran a meth kit on my 8v wagon back in the day and it made a huge difference. Single nozzle before the throttle body..
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:41 PM   #11
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Bandaid at best, go standalone.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:47 PM   #12
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if you have e85 available, you'd be better suited spending money going that route IMO.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:35 PM   #13
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I use E85 with additional injection.
LH 2.4 give you very easy to just install for the fifth injector to your engine parallel to the system.

i have done the experiment with 2 variations, 4 additional injector flow ratios, and 3 injector location with 0.5 bars boost

start with total flow
1320 = 250(bosch yellow top)*4 + 380(Nissan): 29%:71%
1275 = 250(bosch yellow top)*4 + 275(Honda): 21%:79%
1350 = 275(Honda K20 9 hole) + 250 (yellow top) 18%:82%
1480 = 275(Honda K20 9 hole) + 380 (nissan): 25%:75%

Loaction ( all after MAF)
1. in intake at cold start injector position ( samp presser as main injectors)
2. after turbo but before throttle ( no vacuum only boost at injector tip)
3. before the turbo ( atmospheric pressure)

i need to took intercooler out for safty resons.

RESULTS
- LH can't learn to idle with position 2 and 3 with 25% and 28% need to tune, for 18 and 21 no issue.
- rough idle at position 1, much more ratio this thing go worse.
- position 2 with 28% give coolest intake air, position 3 still look good ( measure before main injectors)
- after boost apply position 3 trends to rich , position 1,2 trend to lean, but it can tune.
- Intake Backfire/exhaust fire occurs sometime, position 1 occurs most position 3 just lest.

So
I use position 3 with 25% without intercooler for 2 years without a turbine issue.

now
i switch to 16V head with the bigger injector and bigger boost.

I recommend a bigger boost.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhor View Post
I use E85 with additional injection.
LH 2.4 give you very easy to just install for the fifth injector to your engine parallel to the system.

i have done the experiment with 2 variations, 4 additional injector flow ratios, and 3 injector location with 0.5 bars boost

start with total flow
1320 = 250(bosch yellow top)*4 + 380(Nissan): 29%:71%
1275 = 250(bosch yellow top)*4 + 275(Honda): 21%:79%
1350 = 275(Honda K20 9 hole) + 250 (yellow top) 18%:82%
1480 = 275(Honda K20 9 hole) + 380 (nissan): 25%:75%

Loaction ( all after MAF)
1. in intake at cold start injector position ( samp presser as main injectors)
2. after turbo but before throttle ( no vacuum only boost at injector tip)
3. before the turbo ( atmospheric pressure)

i need to took intercooler out for safty resons.

RESULTS
- LH can't learn to idle with position 2 and 3 with 25% and 28% need to tune, for 18 and 21 no issue.
- rough idle at position 1, much more ratio this thing go worse.
- position 2 with 28% give coolest intake air, position 3 still look good ( measure before main injectors)
- after boost apply position 3 trends to rich , position 1,2 trend to lean, but it can tune.
- Intake Backfire/exhaust fire occurs sometime, position 1 occurs most position 3 just lest.

So
I use position 3 with 25% without intercooler for 2 years without a turbine issue.

now
i switch to 16V head with the bigger injector and bigger boost.

I recommend a bigger boost.
not west your time like me...555
You could probably run a boost switch to kill power to number 1 with this injection method as well. But it seems like overall fueling isn’t much the issue. I’m not sure because so far the OP hasn’t posted about his afr and timing information.

It’s a pretty simple staged injection for batch fired stuff. In high school we had a project with a similar setup with 3 extra injectors and 3 different Hobbs switches. We knew nothing about the world of stand alone or chips or mapping of fuel injection. Just a simple rich/lean narrow band o2, a few spare throttle body injectors and some cheap pressure switches... if I remember correctly we hit finally blew it at 25psi.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:41 AM   #15
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yeha....
now a day we have more effective way like stand alone ecu and big injector with very less dead time.

we can apply big boost in proper injector angle, precise AF, these very responsive.
as i mention don't looses your time in old school way....

about methanol, here not easy to get. i have no idae about it .
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:22 AM   #16
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I run a single nozzle progressive kit on my B6304+T, non-intercooled, and my intake temps are spectacular. It's still stock compression (10.7:1, allegedly), and I run ~10psi with 15* at WOT. If it's detonating, it's too quiet to hear. I have made it ping before it was boosted, and it was QUITE apparent over the 3" exhaust. I'm using the same exhaust, except now with boost, and the car is much quieter...and I don't hear anything.

That episode of Engine Masters where they tore a hole in water/meth as a useful tool is garbage. It's totally dependent on manifold design.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:35 AM   #17
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That episode of Engine Masters where they tore a hole in water/meth as a useful tool is garbage. It's totally dependent on manifold design.
That's what I'm thinking of. A B230 intake is way different from an LS intake, but it's still a dry injection manifold only meant to carry air. How good is it at distributing the menthol to every cylinder?
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:40 PM   #18
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IMO, the efi manifold WAS designed for a little bit of wet flow. Early setups had that cold start injector mounted right by the TB. It has to be semi-decent at liquid delivery, because it was actually designed to do it .

Besides, if you've ever looked at an old solex manifold for the B21A, it's basically a log with 4 runners, and a carb smack dab in the middle. Wet flow doesn't have to be ideal for it to work well. A W/M nozzle is a constant spray, so the cylinders will take what they need. The Engine Masters test also only used air temp to get their results, which doesn't provide any real data about cylinder delivery at all. It was pure crap, and EXTREMELY biased. These guys still build engines and slap carburetors based on 60 year old designs on them...so Take their 'science' with a grain of salt.

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Old 02-14-2020, 01:19 AM   #19
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IMO, the efi manifold WAS designed for a little bit of wet flow. Early setups had that cold start injector mounted right by the TB. It has to be semi-decent at liquid delivery, because it was actually designed to do it .

Besides, if you've ever looked at an old solex manifold for the B21A, it's basically a log with 4 runners, and a carb smack dab in the middle. Wet flow doesn't have to be ideal for it to work well. A W/M nozzle is a constant spray, so the cylinders will take what they need. The Engine Masters test also only used air temp to get their results, which doesn't provide any real data about cylinder delivery at all. It was pure crap, and EXTREMELY biased. These guys still build engines and slap carburetors based on 60 year old designs on them...so Take their 'science' with a grain of salt.
Gotcha. Thanks for your wisdom. Your right just watched one where they tested a carb vs muiltifuel injection. The Carb made more power. Im a carb guy but know if carbs made more power then everybody at the track would be ripping f.injection off and installing a carb. LOL. Anyways, liked this discussion. I learned alot. Thanks again.
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Old 02-23-2020, 12:10 PM   #20
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Standalone, E85, Flex Fuel sensor, wasted spark.
I'll try that this summer.

Methanol is meh, I really don't see the pros on volvo redblocks, unless you are trying to run crazy crazy boost. Useless with your setup imo...

Edit if you REALLY want to, try to locate a manifold with the provision for the cold start injector. Its placed right in the middle.
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:46 PM   #21
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Standalone, E85, Flex Fuel sensor, wasted spark.
I'll try that this summer.

Methanol is meh, I really don't see the pros on volvo redblocks, unless you are trying to run crazy crazy boost. Useless with your setup imo...

Edit if you REALLY want to, try to locate a manifold with the provision for the cold start injector. Its placed right in the middle.
How much does wasted spark help? E85 is helpful cause of the octane rating. Pump gas I get around here is terrible. At 15lbs I get the rattle of death. Iíve been running octane boost. Iím converting to e85 soon.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:15 AM   #22
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How much does wasted spark help? E85 is helpful cause of the octane rating. Pump gas I get around here is terrible. At 15lbs I get the rattle of death. Iíve been running octane boost. Iím converting to e85 soon.
Well, 15 pounds is quite good already.

What do you have for an exhaust ?

You know, high boost doesn't mean high power. If you have a restrictive exhaust (and that starts at the turbine housing...), boost will build up. If you open it up, It'll reduce the boost without reducing power...
Detonation is caused by a lot of things.

Also beware, if your pump gas is awful, then there is no reasons for your E85 to be super to quality. Get a flex fuel sensor, if you go standalone you could factor that in, bc sometimes its more around 60%, 85% ethanol is the max (in theory)

Pinging can also be caused by highspots in the combustion chamber. Damaged/fooled plugs, carbon build up ect...
E85 runs a bit cooler also. But it sucks when cold if not done right, also you'll need bigger injectors.

Wasted spark, well, I'd say that above a certain power mark, it's better to got wasted spark, or even better non wasted COP or CNP but it's more difficult and costly. I'd rather have 2 plugs firing at once, changing them more often, than spending money in a more complex sequential system. Well it's my opinion, I'm no genius, I'm sure other peoples will have things to add/correct.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:06 AM   #23
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I ran E85 for 3 or 4 years with no flex fuel sensor, and it was a constant state of chasing tune.

After I upgraded from the old MS1 box I had been using to an MS3X and added a flex sensor, I could see why. The % of ethanol was going up and down with each tankful. Some people seem to get pretty consistent ethanol percentages, but that wasn't my experience. It might help if you stick with one and only one station, but even then the percentage probably changes when they refill their tanks.
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:30 AM   #24
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I ran E85 for 3 or 4 years with no flex fuel sensor, and it was a constant state of chasing tune.

After I upgraded from the old MS1 box I had been using to an MS3X and added a flex sensor, I could see why. The % of ethanol was going up and down with each tankful. Some people seem to get pretty consistent ethanol percentages, but that wasn't my experience. It might help if you stick with one and only one station, but even then the percentage probably changes when they refill their tanks.
That's why I plan on going with a flex fuel sensor on my MS
But wait, MicroSquirt can read from the E85 sensor right ? All the infos I found are about MegaSquirt.
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:33 AM   #25
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Not a clue on Microsquirt. It's a version of MS2E?
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