home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-09-2020, 11:43 PM   #26
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

^^^^ is where I was gonna go as well, works just fine without the need for crazy stuff. The trigger angle is designed for exactly what you're trying to do.

For the direct coil fire, I've been running mine like that for many years, in a wasted spark config using the Yoshifab CAS as a trigger, no issues whatsoever. I DID however have a ton of issues with feedback from the injector drivers once I added in the coil control, but a filter cap there and all was right with the world.
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams "Mr. Doug" 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman "fivehundred" 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey "TrickMick" 1/10/14
Mark Baldwin "blue850t5" 7/19/18
Nick Fengler "fengler" 8/6/18
Thomas Fritz "stealthfti" 10/11/18


74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!

Last edited by gsellstr; 04-10-2020 at 12:25 PM..
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2020, 01:49 AM   #27
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

"Best to use a coil with an integrated driver or get an external driver for use with the coil."
Is this the Bosch 124 Power Stage?

"I DI however have a ton of issues with feedback from the injector drivers once I added in the coil control, but a filter cap there and all was right with the world."
Filter cap???

So much to learn.
Thanks,
TR
__________________
Feedback thread:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=246561
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2020, 12:26 PM   #28
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=257268
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2020, 01:26 PM   #29
142 guy
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
For the direct coil fire, I've been running mine like that for many years, in a wasted spark config using the Yoshifab CAS as a trigger, no issues whatsoever. I DID however have a ton of issues with feedback from the injector drivers once I added in the coil control, but a filter cap there and all was right with the world.
You can use the BIP373 drivers mounted on the heat sink in the MS2 case and it can work. You do need to need to be more careful with your wiring and grounding. The BIP373 grounds the coil through the V3.00 circuit board ground plane. If you have marginal solder connections or marginal grounding of the circuit board ground plane to the vehicle chassis the high transients in the coil primary current will show up as ground plane voltage transients causing problems for the processor.

If you are not careful with separation in the routing of the coil primary wire back into the MS2 box, the high current in the coil primary circuit can inductively couple into any circuit that is adjacent to it. This could include sensor circuits depending on whether you have or have no gone to the extra effort of twisted pairs and grounded shields.

As you have demonstrated, you can make this work. However, it is more problematic. There is a reason why, prior to the adoption of smart ignition coils just about every OEM used an ignitor / coil driver external to the ECU rather than install the drivers inside the ECU case.
142 guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2020, 07:56 PM   #30
142 guy
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
MS settings takes care of this for you.

First of all you must have a locked dist (welded or whatever)
You time the rotor so it is centered on the #1 post of the cap at 25°before, then lock down the distributor and don't move it EVER.
This centers the rotor to the post in the span of normal operation of 10° to 40° (25°mid point), this is setting the rotor phasing.
This is a one time mechanical adjustment and the distributor is not moved from this setting for any reason.

You use the "trigger angle offset" in TS and adjust the MS timing (using "fixed timing" of say "15°") so a timing light shows 15°.
While you have it in fixed mode rev the motor and verify the timing is rock steady, you can change the trigger edge or adjust for latency to dial this in if there is error.
NOTE: if the triggering edge is changed the trigger angle offset will have to be changed to correct the timing difference.
This aligns the MS to what you have in the table when you switch back to "use table".
Now a timing light is no longer needed and all running timing is set by the spark table in use.
This can work; but, you don't know ahead of time where your trigger offset is going to end up. In section 6.2.1.1 of the MSExtra hardware manual, they cover the problems with phasing when using the existing points / sensor in the distributor for the trigger signal. They are clear that the desired trigger angle should be in the 60-90 deg BTDC range, or as an option in the case of a B18 / B20 you can go for 10 BTDC if that is what you are using for your cranking advance. They discuss the down sides to this.

If your method works out to a trigger angle in the 60 - 90 deg BDC range, then all is good. If you don't want to run your B18/B20 with more than 35 deg advance, then ending up with a trigger in the 45 - 90 deg range might also be acceptable.
142 guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2020, 02:42 PM   #31
142 guy
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Just pull the dist drive gear and clock that however you want. No need to chop up the distributor.

And it should be a fairly trivial task to lock the mechanical advance in a distributor. It's just little weighted levers and springs.

I'm curious to see how well the 'phantom SU carbs' fuel injection will work. In my mind, one of the main issues with that is the uneven cylinder pairing provided by the stock manifold. The firing order is 1342, so you can see that 1 and 2 are right next to each other, and so are 3 and 4. Not much of a problem on a carb that just adds fuel to whatever air flows through it. But it might be an issue with one injector squirting fuel into a shared port that has 180 degrees of rotation wait for one cylinder (3 and 2) and 540 degrees of wait time for the other two (4 and 1).

Probably less of an issue at higher RPMs? I know ye olde Bosch D-jet fires the port injectors in pairs, and the much newer LH on the 240's fires all 4 of them all at the same time - but in those cases, the fuel just has very slightly different amounts of 'loiter' time in their own individual intake runners and it's not like one cylinder has a chance to snag the fuel from the other.
You do raise a good issue. The 180 deg crank throws between 1 and 2 means that 1 is firing only 180 deg after 2 fires so the strategy of parking fuel in the manifold does not work so well. The 'phantom SU strategy' with the common 1&2 and 3&4 injectors is reminiscent of the siamesed intake ports used on the Mini A series and MG B series engines which also have the same 1342 firing order and crank throws as the B18 / B20 engines.

Section 4.1 of the MSExra Set up manual discusses the injector timing requirements for this type of siamesed port arrangement. The manual infers that this can be done with semi sequential injection without the use of a cam signal. Its not clear to me how that works unless they are presuming that you are using a crank wheel with a missing tooth. They don't get into that detail. I don't see how just a tach signal from a distributor will work because there is absolutely no information about which cylinder is firing.

Short answer, the siamesed intake arrangement that the OP is proposing to use can probably be made to work (they are making it work on Mini A and MGB engines). Its not something I needed to do so I didn't investigate the application; but, it is not clear to me that you can make this work without a cam or missing tooth signal. Before the OP gets too far down the road with hacking up his distributor he needs to investigate siamesed port operation because using the distributor to generate just a tach signal may be a dead horse.
142 guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2020, 01:27 AM   #32
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

I'm close to firing it up, just waiting for the surge tank. Speedpak from China is anything but speedy!
I'll give it a try and see how horrible it is. I've read about the theoretical problems of having adjacent cylinders firing, though no first hand experience.
If there is a problem with cylinders 4 & 1 running lean, I'll try something else.
I'm enjoying the feedback and am learning at the same time.
Thanks
TR

Here's what I found:
With semi-sequential, each injector channel will fire once per rev (twice per cycle) so you need to change to either 2 squirts/simultaneous or 4 squirts/alternating which would set the fueling correctly for that.

For semi-sequential, you only need a crank signal. Pair the injectors as you would the ignition coils for the wasted spark (cylinders 360 degrees apart).

Last edited by TR Conn; 04-12-2020 at 01:48 AM..
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2020, 01:57 PM   #33
142 guy
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TR Conn View Post

For semi-sequential, you only need a crank signal. Pair the injectors as you would the ignition coils for the wasted spark (cylinders 360 degrees apart).
I am thinking crank signal implies a missing tooth wheel, not a tach signal. Also, you are not pairing the injectors on cylinders that are 360 deg apart. You are pairing 1 and 2 (3 and 4) which are 180 deg apart.

With 180 deg of spacing between 2 and 1, you have 540 deg of crank rotation to deliver fuel to cylinder 2 and only 180 deg to deliver to cylinder 1. That is ignoring all the complications / messiness associated with valve intake timing which exceeds 180 deg! You have to make sure that the 1 - 2 injector has adequate capacity to deliver fuel to cylinder #1 in 180 deg or less. If they don't allow you to set constraints, a lot of those on-line injector sizing calculators presume that you have up to a theoretical 720 deg of crank rotation to deliver fuel to one cylinder. Even the normally oversized (for a B20) Bosch 036 injector may not be adequate to deliver all the fuel required for one cylinder in less than 180 deg of crank rotation at 5000 - 6000 RPM.

As an additional observation, any injector that is large enough to deliver all of the fuel required for a single cylinder in less than 180 deg will likely be running at very small pulse widths at idle. You will need to select an injector that provides reliable operation at small pulse widths, otherwise you will likely never have a smooth idle. A lot of injectors don't provide consistent fuel delivery when the pulse width gets in the 1 - 1.5 millisecond range.

Using batch fire two squirts you should be able to get the engine to fire up, idle and perhaps run OK at low loads. Try some full load operation and you may risk melting cylinders 1 and 4. Because of the potentially extreme differences in the fuel mix going to the paired cylinders an O2 sensor will likely never give you an accurate picture of what is going on. Do your injector math before you try any full load operation.

I expect that there are close to 0 users on the Turbobricks forum who have tried the siamesed intake strategy so you are likely not going to get any prior experience to guide you here. Go to the Mini or MGB forums to look for set-up experience or consider getting injector bungs welded into each of your runners which would convert it to a more conventional 1 injector per port arrangement. Convert to conventional 1 injector per port and you will get lots of people offering opinions about operating issues on this forum.
142 guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 01:32 AM   #34
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

Yep!
I've seen the light.
I'm still going to hook up the fuel and drive it around the block a few times and then go back to the drawing board on the intake and injector location.
I'm really looking for a TBI set up of some sort.
I'll post up when I come up with my next hair-brained idea.

Thanks for the education.

TR
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 09:17 AM   #35
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

You could also get an E/F head and use D-Jet injectors. No real need to use the D-Jet manifold along with that.

And I would be interested in seeing how the real world results are vs. the theory on the 'incorrectly' paired cylinders/ports puling from a common injector. In theory it sounds bad, but perhaps in reality it isn't?
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141
JohnMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 02:44 PM   #36
MikeJr.
Gloss Boss
 
MikeJr.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Acworth, GA 30102
Default

https://photos.app.goo.gl/i9aFeXsxUZUCVXCU6
I'm doing what this guy did, and will use the stock B20 FI intake
__________________
My other projects http://www.pbase.com/mikejr
MikeJr. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 04:16 PM   #37
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

That is what I'd do also, if I had a head with the injector ports. It looks like his project was to upgrade the injectors which required a new fuel rail. Looks like a nice job of doing it!
I'm trying to do this project with the existing head. I'm looking for a solution that can be used with the NA head and would also be applicable to a B18, which was never injected by Volvo.

Last edited by TR Conn; 04-13-2020 at 04:23 PM..
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 12:11 PM   #38
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

you can always have injector bungs welded to the intake runners.

In the hopes of keeping it as a "easily returned to stock" kind of project. You might look into Ducati 996 throttle bodies. Each TB has 2 injectors. Looks like some mikuni style soft mounts and youd be set. Throat size is pretty damn close to SUs and they're not uncommon.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 12:35 PM   #39
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

I've actually got a fuel rail project sitting on the bench right now, new custom rail, K-jet bosses rather than d-jet since they have the screw holes to use for holding the rail down, and some Hellcat injectors which are dirt cheap, #60, and have a projected tip that plays nicely with the boss/head setup. Really should turn out nice, but you do need the bosses.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2020, 10:15 PM   #40
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

I've added a couple of updates to the original post.
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2020, 11:34 PM   #41
vwbusman66
Stößelstange über alles!
 
vwbusman66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingsville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
you can always have injector bungs welded to the intake runners.

In the hopes of keeping it as a "easily returned to stock" kind of project. You might look into Ducati 996 throttle bodies. Each TB has 2 injectors. Looks like some mikuni style soft mounts and youd be set. Throat size is pretty damn close to SUs and they're not uncommon.

Well damn, I'm gonna run those on the b20!
__________________
1971 142 beater/fake racecar
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
the only problem with that is what you define as cheap and fast
Quote:
Originally Posted by propav8r
The incest is implied.
vwbusman66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2020, 03:50 AM   #42
TR Conn
Board Member
 
TR Conn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Default

These will run into the same problem I discovered the hard way.
Read the article I referenced in the update regarding siamese ports and firing order.
Cylinders 1 & 4 will run much leaner than 2 & 3.
You could possibly be OK with some form of sequential injection.
TR Conn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2020, 11:46 AM   #43
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

If I understand it correctly. When you use sequential or Semi-sequential the code ignores the Squirts variable.
__________________
I don't know who I am when I am somebody else.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2020, 12:41 PM   #44
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: - Stock PSI Or Bust -
Default

Opened this thread thinking I'd learn how to run the venerable OG Bosch D-jet blue tops with MS.

__________________
Raise The Lowered


Image hosted by servimg.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna support?

Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2020, 01:57 PM   #45
vwbusman66
Stößelstange über alles!
 
vwbusman66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingsville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
Opened this thread thinking I'd learn how to run the venerable OG Bosch D-jet blue tops with MS.

Resistors.
vwbusman66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2020, 10:26 PM   #46
142 guy
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
Opened this thread thinking I'd learn how to run the venerable OG Bosch D-jet blue tops with MS.
Blue tops - do you mean the blue-green Bosch barbed style injectors (part number ending 036) that came on the D jet cars? If so, they run just fine with MS (I have been doing this with MS II since 2015. The robust solution is external 6 ohm current limiting resistors (just like in the original D jet application). If you like the feel of poking yourself in the eye with a sharp object you can try and make the PWM current limiting feature in MS II work - I wouldn't bother.

If you are trying to configure the 036 injectors, be aware that the actual flow rates are closer to 55 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi. I tested my 036 injectors at 38 psi (Nissan 280 Z FPR base operating pressure) and the flow rate came out at 514 ml/min.
142 guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.