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Oil Pump Mods - Max Effort

CaseyHooligan said:
Are you pretty confident that the fittings are inserted into their respective sockets(Block/Oil Pump)? When I install the Oil tubes into my block, I have to do a bit of fiddling to make sure they are seated all the way.

The stock oil tube's smaller diameter and larger o-rings probably go a long way for compensating for any manufacturing variances and rough surface finishes. My design is a lot more sensitive to those issues.

I've designed the geometry and welding fixtures around my particular block and I don't have much data on manufacturing variances. I'm assuming the factory must have a reasonable allowable tolerance for the oil pump mounting and fitting locations....

Any way, I'll be sending out about 10 more assemblies this week so hopefully I can get more useful feedback from other people.
I definitely will be updating and improving the design over time though.
Click to expand...

CaseyHooligan said:
True, assuming that is a problem.
I'm using 1.5mm x 14mm Brown Viton o-rings(75A durometer) so they are a bit harder than stock. And quite a bit thinner.

I designed the fittings to be a close fit to the bores so if they are inserted into the block and oil pump fully, there should only be ~2deg max misalignment in the bores which is well within the 2 o-rings ability to seal. And the surface finish would have to really bad to affect the sealing. And there are 2 o-rings per fitting... So that's why I'm having a hard time with the idea of leakage.

However, if the oil socket bores on other blocks are larger in diameter and have a rough finish, then maybe there could be issues.

I am really tempted to take a hosed, bare squirter block and mount a pump in it, block all passages after the pump inlet to the block, spin the oil pump and visually inspect for leakage.

In future designs I've already accommodated a 2mm thick o-ring, double stacked with a bit more wall clearance in the bores, just in case.
Click to expand...

I would be more concerned with misalignment and geometric tolerances then surface finish.

Think about how the oil pumps are assembled and how they bolt to the block. Theres some variance there... probably need to make sure that you can compensate for that with the o-rings. Also put into play the fact that you are fixing the oil tube in one position with that brace. Everything has to be spot on perfect for it work. You want something you dont have to fiddle with that an average rookie can slap in and get oil pressure.

Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.
 
blkaplan said:
I would be more concerned with misalignment and geometric tolerances then surface finish.

Think about how the oil pumps are assembled and how they bolt to the block. Theres some variance there... probably need to make sure that you can compensate for that with the o-rings. Also put into play the fact that you are fixing the oil tube in one position with that brace. Everything has to be spot on perfect for it work. You want something you dont have to fiddle with that an average rookie can slap in and get oil pressure.

Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.
Click to expand...

You might not have noticed, I've slotted the brace mounting holes and left generous clearance around the bolts to allow some movement during mounting.

I'll be sending out a recommended installation procedure with these prototypes to help understand the intended fitting. The oil pump bolts attaching the brace are to be tightened after installation of the oil tube/oil pump are in the block.

I understand there is a tendency to formulate an opinion around Tate's post, but at least reserve judgement until you try it for yourself.

And God help a rookie who is building his own engine and "slapping" parts on!
 
I haven't fired up my fresh rebuilt B20 since I built it last year, I remember denting my tube to get around these bolts and that the fitment/sealing of my tube was questionable.

Wish these were around when I built mine, if I don't make good oil pressure I'll be seeking out one of these when I end up rebuilding the engine :lol:
 
B20 oil pump tubes aren't the same as B21/B23/B230.

There are 2 different tubes for B21 as well. Early B21's used an early oil pump with a different tube that is the correct tube if you want to vert mount a B21/B23 using a B20 pump. The pump and tube were updated to the late style that was used on all later redblocks. The B20 pump won't fit a B230 because a counterweight on the crank hits the pump. You need to shorten a late style pump if you want to vert mount a B230 using a B20 pan.
 
blkaplan;5985249 Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.[/QUOTE said:
Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
Click to expand...
 
Tfrasca said:
Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
Click to expand...

A bigger shoulder on the tube would do the trick, as long as you use OEM O-rings(418360OE?)
After years of reading about the O-ring issue, I've formulated a theory about the various O-ring materials:
Black O-rings = Junk (EPDM rubber or silicone?) Poor temperature resistance
Orange O-rings = OEM quality (Buna-N rubber?) ~212F constant duty
My O-rings = Viton fluoroelastomer 400F constant, up to 600F intermittent

Maybe an even better stock style O-ring would be:
McMaster-Carr #1170N54

Used with a steel .5mm back-up washer between the tube bump and the o-ring.
Hmm, Maybe I should make a few sets of this required back-up washer and order the o-rings and try it out...

Of course the stock transfer tube would still interfere with ARP main studs...
 
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CaseyHooligan said:
You might not have noticed, I've slotted the brace mounting holes and left generous clearance around the bolts to allow some movement during mounting.

I'll be sending out a recommended installation procedure with these prototypes to help understand the intended fitting. The oil pump bolts attaching the brace are to be tightened after installation of the oil tube/oil pump are in the block.

I understand there is a tendency to formulate an opinion around Tate's post, but at least reserve judgement until you try it for yourself.

And God help a rookie who is building his own engine and "slapping" parts on!
Click to expand...

Also please don't take any of this as being too critical. I like what you are doing and am trying to help with some suggestions. Sometimes tone and intent can be difficult to convey over interw3bs posting.

That being said

Most of my comments aren't necessarily centered around tates experience, just thoughts i have had looking at what you are doing and potential for problems.

I did notice the slots but the plane is still locked. its possible it can work out fine but its also possible to have issues. If the plate isn't parallel to the assembly... tightening it down at the end can still shift it out of alignment, if it was in alignment to begin with. having a plate like this isn't necessarily a problem as long you are compensating for enough misalignment...

I think your best bet would be to put together a test block. where you can spin the oil pump with a drill or the int, shaft... and see how well it seals and how far it can be out of alignment before you start getting leakage. People spend alot of money putting together engines... if they upgrade to something like this, i think it would be great piece of mind to know the what should be acceptable and what might generate in an issue.
 
Tfrasca said:
Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
Click to expand...

The volvo setup is reliable, To my knowledge it was never a problem when these cars were new and being driven by the masses. You can have problems with inferior parts being replace but the stock setup, for the most part.... works just fine. Could it be more bullet proof? Sure.

Will it clear ARP studs? no
 
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CaseyHooligan said:
A bigger shoulder on the tube would do the trick, as long as you use OEM O-rings(418360OE?)
After years of reading about the O-ring issue, I've formulated a theory about the various O-ring materials:
Black O-rings = Junk (EPDM rubber or silicone?) Poor temperature resistance
Orange O-rings = OEM quality (Buna-N rubber?) ~212F constant duty
My O-rings = Viton fluoroelastomer 400F constant, up to 600F intermittent

Maybe an even better stock style O-ring would be:
McMaster-Carr #1170N54

Used with a steel .5mm back-up washer between the tube bump and the o-ring.
Hmm, Maybe I should make a few sets of this required back-up washer and order the o-rings and try it out...

Of course the stock transfer tube would still interfere with ARP main studs...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was envisioning your design, but with the ends changed to accept OEM o-rings. Same bend to clear the ARP stud, and definitely keep the bracket. But instead of the two o-rings, you use the stock one and add a nice flat shoulder for it.
 
I am pretty confident that both ends are in as far as they can go. It took some time and force to get everything aligned to fit.

I couldn't get the fitting any further into the oil pump, and even if I did, it would misalign from the oil port in the block. I couldn't get the fitting further into the block because the height was fixed by the brace.

I really think it's caused by block oil port angle differences. Because the tube location is fixed, I could see the angle differences causing sealing problems between the block and tube. I bet it doesn't leak at the pump because of the brace.

I've driven the car a bit more. While I haven't datalogged it, I do notice during cold startup pressure builds to ~15 psi, drops, and then jumps up to ~45 psi.
 
t8fanning said:
I am pretty confident that both ends are in as far as they can go. It took some time and force to get everything aligned to fit.

I couldn't get the fitting any further into the oil pump, and even if I did, it would misalign from the oil port in the block. I couldn't get the fitting further into the block because the height was fixed by the brace.

I really think it's caused by block oil port angle differences. Because the tube location is fixed, I could see the angle differences causing sealing problems between the block and tube. I bet it doesn't leak at the pump because of the brace.

I've driven the car a bit more. While I haven't datalogged it, I do notice during cold startup pressure builds to ~15 psi, drops, and then jumps up to ~45 psi.
Click to expand...

Alright,
Well I just sent out 7 more so hopefully I can get more feedback from other people.
I took a lot of care to fixture and align these fittings to my block and oil pump(94'B230FT/New Volvo pump). If there are issues with block/pump geometry variations, I will hear about it I'm sure.
 
Finally installed, a little review

Since I found some time in between lectures and the tube had arrived I decided to install it today. I found the instructions very clear, and the item was packaged really nicely and looked great!

I previously installed my oil pump with the ipd reinforcement ring as well, so the install was a little harder, but with a careful wiggle it seated right in the bores. I chose to keep the ring on the end of the drive gear, since this appeared to be the easiest, and for me it worked well. The tube seated nicely and the bolts on the pump could be tightened after rotating the crank a bit, the tube fitted as shown below:

<img src="https://i.imgur.com/lmNJK51.jpg" width="600" height="400">

<img src="https://i.imgur.com/4CHOh88.jpg" width="600" height="400">

I did notice a difference between the tightness of the refreshed stock o-rings and the viton seal on the ZG tube. The stock one sat much tighter which would explain the pressure drop at lower flowrates as discussed above. I also prelubed the seals, which I would recommend adding to the manual ;)

<img src="https://i.imgur.com/KSRyh78.jpg" width="400" height="600">

It will probably take a while for me to get the engine running, but by that time I'll get to a follow up review:)
 
Swedbrick said:
Since I found some time in between lectures and the tube had arrived I decided to install it today. I found the instructions very clear, and the item was packaged really nicely and looked great!

I previously installed my oil pump with the ipd reinforcement ring as well, so the install was a little harder, but with a careful wiggle it seated right in the bores. I chose to keep the ring on the end of the drive gear, since this appeared to be the easiest, and for me it worked well. The tube seated nicely and the bolts on the pump could be tightened after rotating the crank a bit, the tube fitted as shown below:

I did notice a difference between the tightness of the refreshed stock o-rings and the viton seal on the ZG tube. The stock one sat much tighter which would explain the pressure drop at lower flowrates as discussed above. I also prelubed the seals, which I would recommend adding to the manual ;)

It will probably take a while for me to get the engine running, but by that time I'll get to a follow up review:)
Click to expand...

Thanks for that feedback Swedbrick

Does anyone else have an opinion or feedback on this V1 design?
I'd really like to hear it, positive or negative.
 
Over the past few months I've been working on another version of the Oil Tube.
This version would be either cast or AM, in this case I made one in Binder jet Stainless/Bronze from EXOne.

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After printing about 3 versions, I've finally tweaked the CAD and shrink factor to achieve a near perfect fit to my block and pump(Volvo pump, 94' B230FT block).

It did take a bit of thought to figure out an easy way to fixture for machining of the o-ring grooves. I wound up using a fatter o-ring than the previous design, now it's a 2mm x 14 as opposed to a 1.5mm x 14mm.
The o-ring fit is much tighter now as well.

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I've been thinking about the oil tube improvements from the other end also.
How could I improve the stock oil tube seal reliability. This might be very similar to what others here have done.

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I've machined a very close fitting steel back-up ring that provides better o-ring support and used a better quality square-section o-ring(Viton).

The New Viton o-ring is a very tight fit into the block and pump, and a bit thinner is width which is to compensate for the added width of the steel back-up ring.

TThm9HLfBYH9AomNLFgc-8Ypc6i-R0JB_YsSrgPId5lxD28ZWP66OBzy-_zohQg1Yehot76mKe92PywDZDPNdjhO7YcMk_mkH6Z3IWzJlcK0ZCBT2nGHGXsHB7U556eBsjW3mdBJ6Q=w1000-h562-no


It seems the real problem is o-ring longevity, from what I can gather, The OEM o-rings tend to harden and crack over time, obviously leaking. My theory is that a longer lived material like Viton would mitigate this issue.
 
One more update.
I have been working on a stock style replacement oil tube that uses the improved Viton o-ring and steel back-up ring as well as having a bend profile that clears the ARP main studs.

I should have something to show in the next few weeks.
 
CaseyHooligan said:
One more update.
I have been working on a stock style replacement oil tube that uses the improved Viton o-ring and steel back-up ring as well as having a bend profile that clears the ARP main studs.

I should have something to show in the next few weeks.
Click to expand...

Great updates. I'm interested in a stock style tube that would clear ARP studs. I'll be building a new engine over the winter, so I could actually use it.
 
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