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Old 06-16-2020, 06:04 AM   #1
SkeTchy-MechAniC
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Thumbs up building an NA that could

Goodday you guys!

Placed my order on KLracing a couple of days ago and it should be here tomorrow. Just thought i'll bring you guys up to speed on what i'll be working on

8 st A8-3-3F1 Enkel Ventilfjäder volvo 8v 41-46kg
1 st XF3-2F3 Volvo 8v kamaxel KLR S/T5
4 st A9-7-3F1 38mm Avgas 8v 01602
4 st A9-8-3F1 46mm Insug 8v 01600
8 st A2-4-3F4 Lachcaps höjd 4mm (8mm skaft)
4 st A8-7-2F1 48mm Tratt Längd 140mm Utan fot
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:04 PM   #2
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What kind of power are you building up the engine for?
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:09 PM   #3
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Where’s the new intake manifold? All of those fancy head parts are going to be held back by the intake mani
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:24 PM   #4
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I'm hoping to make 200 crank with these parts, should be doable right? Good point on the manifold. Was playing with the idea of using motorcycle throttle body's of some sort but that ain't certain yet. One other thing i didn't figure out yet is the exhaust manifold. After seeing the video of that guy from drifts and lifts making no power with that nice manifold i'm not quite sure if it's worth the cost for my build.

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Old 06-16-2020, 03:00 PM   #5
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Volvo evo head is a great upgrade for power.
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Volvo evo head is a great upgrade for power.
Someone willing to take a kidney AND testicles for one of those?

For the people interested i thought i'll just post the cam specs down here:
KLR 5 Camshaft suitable for various forms of motorsport such as Rally, Racing etc. Also goes to Turbo motors designed for Dragrace.
Camshafts are ground on new blanks (we do not need any old camshaft in exchange)

Dur on driving play 300 degrees
Cam lift
12.9mm Cam angle 108 degrees
TDC lift approx 4.5mm
Valve play 0.35mm Distributor groove
on camshaft: Yes
Needed
Fits original valve press

Last edited by SkeTchy-MechAniC; 06-17-2020 at 04:40 AM..
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:52 PM   #7
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Seems like a lot of camshaft for 200 on the flywheel. How much compression? You'll need a lot.
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Old 06-18-2020, 03:42 AM   #8
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200 crank is the least i'd be happy with, More would be definitely be nice

About the compression. I've bought a low mileage B230F that looks really good inside so i'll have that freshened up and it'll be ready to go. Did start on the head already and got the valves unshrouted and decked 2,5MM, When the valves are in i'll measure the left over chamber vollume. Guess i could also deck the block a bit, How much can be taken off with the stock F pistons?
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Old 06-18-2020, 10:31 AM   #9
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Box filled with excitement and motivation

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Old 06-18-2020, 08:11 PM   #10
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image hotlink fail
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:09 PM   #11
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Friend of mine just made 283whp/218wtq on an NA Honda K24 block with a K20 head... All motor with just upgraded pistons, rods and cams.

Why didn't you go for a 16V head?
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poulrais View Post
Friend of mine just made 283whp/218wtq on an NA Honda K24 block with a K20 head... All motor with just upgraded pistons, rods and cams.

Why didn't you go for a 16V head?
^^^^^ This.
Also, what CR on that K20/24?
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by vwbusman66 View Post
^^^^^ This.
Also, what CR on that K20/24?
I would guess in the 12.5:1 range
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:18 AM   #14
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k swap is so ridiculous but sound so nasty ripping at 8 grand.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:46 AM   #15
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Image working again?

Those Honda's do are fast, Just one thing .. I'd rather have 90 proud volvo ponies than 300 while shamefully confessing its powered by a HóNdÃ

Chose an 8v because i had a good engine and some other stuff laying around the shop. There is also a 16v head somewhere but these 8v's are just plain simple, forgiving and cheap! No tears when i **** it up + performance part prices for these are a joke! Whole top end kit is less than 400 eur! The 16v will be build some day but for now the 8v will be enough to build a fun light track car and make some seat time.

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Old 06-19-2020, 03:52 AM   #16
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seats-are-ground

Will try to get the valves done tonight and post some pictures, turbobrickers love them pictures righ?t
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:16 PM   #17
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You’re going to be short of your HP goal if using a stock intake manifold. That’s the real bottle neck on a 8v NA volvo.
Kyle (klr142) has built up and raced some very hot NA 8v engines for road racing (~170-180 crank hp), and you can find some of his stuff linked here:
https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=354499

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=349780

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...=221925&page=4



He’s currently running some cam that’s a bit larger than the T5 cam, and it’ll be interesting to see how it does compared to the “small” cam he had in there previously.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:37 PM   #18
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OP mentioned motorcycle throttle bodies.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:01 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
OP mentioned motorcycle throttle bodies.
"Was playing with the idea of motorcycle throttle bodies"... let's see how this plays out. My bet is on stock manifolds in and out
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:28 PM   #20
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Old 06-22-2020, 02:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
You’re going to be short of your HP goal if using a stock intake manifold. That’s the real bottle neck on a 8v NA volvo.
Kyle (klr142) has built up and raced some very hot NA 8v engines for road racing (~170-180 crank hp), and you can find some of his stuff linked here:
https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=354499

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=349780

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...=221925&page=4



He’s currently running some cam that’s a bit larger than the T5 cam, and it’ll be interesting to see how it does compared to the “small” cam he had in there previously.
Kyle really seems to know his stuff! verry informative post thnx.

Is it the name that makes you lose faith in my thoughts? I've got a little surprise for you regarding the intake manifold but more on that later

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Old 06-22-2020, 10:13 AM   #22
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Here you go, Some long waited for progress pictures



Seats are ground and valves cut. On this picture shows some minor porting in progress. Head is currently cleaned and waiting to be milled roughly 2.5-3.0mm.



Some structure paint on there so after milling it's ready to get the head finished up.
Was thinking of getting the dynamic cr to something like 9:1 for pump gas, Suggestions?

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Old 06-22-2020, 12:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkeTchy-MechAniC View Post
Kyle really seems to know his stuff! verry informative post thnx.

Is it the name that makes you lose faith in my thoughts? I've got a little surprise for you regarding the intake manifold but more on that later
Not the name. Mostly that 1% of proposed ITBs or motorcylce carbs actually get finished (completely made up figure, but it seems that way)

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Some structure paint on there so after milling it's ready to get the head finished up.
Was thinking of getting the dynamic cr to something like 9:1 for pump gas, Suggestions?
That's in the ball park of what you want. Will probably want a bit more depending on cam and how it's being driven, especially if using a stock intake manifold. If using ITBs and running high revs, you might want a bit lower.
Interesting thing is, you can alter the intake valve closing by lash or by adv/retarding the camshaft.

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Old 06-23-2020, 02:34 AM   #24
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I'm running a high compression B23 with an H cam and Stahl header connected to a 2 1/2" madrel exhaust. Feels about as fast as my stock 242 GLTi. I would presume that you would be about the same with an 2.2 841 computer.

It does like to sing though. I had to switch to blue top injectors out of a 460 ford to keep the AFR at 12:1 above 3000 rpm. Peaks at 12.6 or so by the time I hit fuel cut at 5500 RPM. I'm running LH2. Once you hit 3000 RPM, it just switches the injectors from pulse to hold open and ignores the O2 sensor feedback.

I'm running a round tooth conversion with a Nuke cam gear. I adjusted the cam gear till I got some ping on full load, full throttle and backed it off a degree. Resulted in a 2 deg advance with this setup.
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Old 06-23-2020, 02:40 AM   #25
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Thnx, I think i'll stay close to the 8,5:1 DCR For the people interested i found a great article with usable examples that isn't a v8 Since the spec's aren't known regarding intake valve closing time i decided to use a fairly similar grind from catcams. I'll be mailing KL asking for accurate data. Here is my input on the Wallace racing dynamic compression calculator.






A small technical article for our petrol heads fans understanding Dynamic compression ratio.

Building a performance motor, one of your first thoughts was probably 'How high should my Compression Ratio (C/R) be?" If so, you need to know the difference between Static Compression and Dynamic Compression, as Static compression is meaningless in itself.

First, lets talk about the two types of compression ratios, Static (SCR) and Dynamic (DCR), and their differences. When most people talk about compression ratio's they are referring to an engines Static compression ratio. The Static ratio is a simple concept and represents the ratio of the swept volume of the cylinder (displacement) to the volume above the piston at top dead center (TDC).

For example, if a hypothetical cylinder (evo 4g63) had a displacement of 500cc and a 50cc combustion chamber, the CR would be 550/50 (500+50/50), or 11:1. If we were to mill the head so that the volume above the piston crown was decreased to 40cc, the CR would now be 540/40 (500+40/40), or 13.5:1. Conversely, if we hogged the chamber out to 60cc, the CR would now be 560/60, or 9.33:1. Using these examples, it is easy to see how slight changes to the chamber volume dramatically effect the Static compression ratio, as well as the Dynamic compression ratio.

Everyone knows that high performance engines typically have higher compression ratios. Why, because higher compression ratios make more hp. Higher CR's also improve fuel efficiency and throttle response. However, there are drawbacks to bumping the C/R to high. Simply put, once the CR exceeds a certain point, detonation occurs. Detonation kills power and it kills the engine, literally.

The amount of compression a given engine can handle is determined by many factors. These include combustion chamber design, cylinder head material, the use of combustion chamber coatings, and so on. Once these mechanical aspects of the engine have been fixed, the main variable is the octane of the fuel used. Higher octane fuels offer increased resistance to detonation, or the ability to tolerate more compression. However, there is a draw back, higher octane fuels cost more money but are built for racing purposes.

With that in mind, you are probably wondering, how high should your C/R be? Even if you know all about your engine and have decided what octane fuel you are going to use, the question cannot be answered as phrased. Why? Because without reference to the camshaft specs (where the intake closes), talking about the Static compression ratio is useless.

How is this so? Well, think about how a four stroke engine works. The power stroke has been completed and the piston is heading upwards in the cylinder. The intake valve is closed and the exhaust valve is open. As the piston rises it is helping to push the spent combustion gasses out the exhaust port. As the piston reaches TDC and starts back down, the exhaust valve closes and the intake valve opens. Fresh fuel and air are drawn into the cylinder as the piston reaches bottom dead center (BDC) and starts back up. This is the critical point as far as understanding the Dynamic compression ratio (DCR).

As with all cam profiles, the intake valve is still open after BDC, and remains open as the piston begins its path upward. Consequently, even though the piston is rising upwards in the cylinder, compression does not actually begin until the intake valve closes (IVC). Once the intake valve closes, and only then, will the air fuel mixture begin to compress (DCR). Hence, the ratio of the cylinder volume when the intake valve closes, over the volume above the piston at TDC, represents the Dynamic compression ratio. The Dynamic CR is what the air fuel mixture actually "sees" and it is what "counts", not the Static CR. Because DCR is dependent upon the IVC, the cam specs have as much effect on the DCR as do the mechanical specifications of the motor.

It should also be noted that the DCR is always lower than the SCR. Most performance street and street/performance motors, with a typical performance camshaft and a SCR of 10.0-12.0:1, will have a DCR in the range of 8.0:1 to 8.5:1. Any higher may result in detonation problems with pump gas.

Dynamic compression ratio should not to be confused with cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressures change almost continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and a number of other factors. DCR is derived from measured or calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine. Therefore, unless variable cam timing is used, just like the static compression ratio, the Dynamic Compression Ratio, is fixed when the engine is built and never changes during the operation of the engine.

It is known that most gas engines make the best power with a DCR between 7.5 and 8.5 on 91 or better octane. A 2000cc 4g63 evo engine with a 9:1 static CR using a 246deg cam has an intake closing point of 52º after BDC and produces a DCR of 7.93. Same engine with a 286 cam (having an intake closing point of 72º ABDC) has a DCR of 6.87, over a full ratio lower.

Hence the larger cam's DCR falls outside the acceptable range. It would have markedly less torque at lower RPM, primarily due to low cylinder pressures, and a substantial amount of reversion back into the intake track. Higher RPM power would be down also since the engine would not be able to fully utilize the extra A/F mixture provided by the ramming effect of the late intake closing. To bring the 286 cam's DCR up to the desirable 7.5 to 8.5:1 for a street engine, the SCR needs to be raised to around 10:1 to 11.25:1.

This lowering of the compression ratio, due to the late closing of the intake valve, is the primary reason cam manufactures specify a higher static compression ratio for their larger cams: to get the running or dynamic CR into the proper range.

Unless you have actually measured the engine (CC'd the chambers and pistons in the bores), these calculations are estimations, at best. Treat them as such. The published volumes for heads and pistons can, and do, vary (crankshafts and rods, too). It is best to error on the low side. When contemplating an engine with an 8.4 DCR or higher, the measurements are essential, or you could be building another motor.

Using this information, DCR is only a tool among others, that a builder has available. It is not the "end all" in cam or CR selection. However, the information provided is very useful for helping to match a cam to an engine or an engine to a cam. It is still necessary to match all the components in an engine and chassis for the best performance possible. Pairing a 286º cam with milled log head just won't cut it even if the DCR is correct, as the cylinder head will never support the RPM capabilities of the cam.

Alternatively, with the SCR known, manipulate the cam specs until a desirable DCR is found. When the best intake closing time is derived, look for a cam an intake closing timing, that provides the other attributes desired (lobe center and duration). Often times the best cam is smaller than one might expect. Sometimes a CR change is needed to run a cam with the desired attributes.

The information given here should be used as a guideline only. There are no hard and fast rules. It is up to you, the engine builder, to determine the correct build of your engine. And remember, unless accurate measurements are taken, calculations are only approximations.

We won't go into all the calculations required, as there are numerous programs available for handling that chore. We recommend purchasing one of these programs, if you are going to select the camshaft profile, and CR without the assistance of a trained professional. We are more than happy to assist you in selecting a cam profile if your not sure. You can send the information to us and we will run the numbers for you.

To determine the Static compression ratio, you need the following information. Cylinder bore, crankshaft stroke, head gasket bore and thickness, piston dish size (if any), deck clearance, and cylinder head chamber size. To determine the Dynamic compression ratio, you'll also need to know the intake valve timing (when it closes).

The ideal DCR range for a performance motor on pump gas is 7.5 to 8.5
Now, lets build a 2000cc engine that is used as a daily driver. As such, we prefer good economy with low to mid range performance, using low octane fuel. Were also concerned about building the motor within a budget. Since we are concerned about economy, we will be using the stock dished pistons if possible. we'll stay with dished pistons to optimize our mileage, and zero deck the block for better quench characteristic and a bit more compression.

Next, using the cam specs, we'll select a short duration cam profile as they work best for low compression motors (for economy). But not to short as we also want one that allows more mid range performance for a little more get up and go. Looking at the specs, our best choice would be the 260 / 256 stock cam. But do we go with a 112 or a 110 lobe center as stock? A 112 lobe center has the intake closing at 62 degrees and offers a smoother idle, while the 110 lobe center closes at 60 degrees and offers more low end grunt and a little bit of a lope. So which do we use?

This is where the dynamic compression ratio comes into play. Since we are building a mild performance motor, the chart will give us a pretty good idea. However, if we were building a high performance motor I would recommend purchasing a Cam Utility program for calculating precise numbers, rather than using approximations.

With our sample motor, we want to use the chart for dished pistons, with a .020 over bore, and zero deck height. Since we are building a motor for the best possible economy, and want to use low octane gas, we need to stay in the green ranges, or around 7.3 to 7.5 for the best performance. But wait, what about chamber size? We know our stock head has 47cc chambers, but looking at the chart, we see that the chambers are to big for the cam profile we selected. With the intake closing at 62 or 60 degrees (depending on the lobe center) and 47cc chambers, our DCR will be to low for good performance.

No problem. Lets move up the charts, looking for a chamber size that has the correct DCR and valve timing for the cam profile we selected. Remember, less static compression is better for an economy build, and that you want to leave as much meat on the cylinder head as possible, leaving room for another rebuild down the road. Therefore you want to find the first match with the IVC (intake closing) between 60-65 degrees, and the DCR in the 7-3 to 7.5 range.

Here is the recommendation and ideal DCR range vs octane

Regular pump 87-91 octane : 7.0 - 8.4 DCR
Premium gas 91-93 octane : 8.4 - 9.1 DCR



For further questions or tech tips please send us email.
infos@extreme-tuners.com / tech@extreme-tuners.com

Spyros Panopoulos

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