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Can't drop AT pan

I am not in the if it ain't broke don't fix it group of mechanics.

I like to fix things before they break, therefore I do on all my cars change the AT filter. OP: Soak the dipstick tube nut. Use the scissor jack method to hold the pan nut from turning. Then release the tube nut.

Replace filter, kickdown cable if it needs replacing, fill with fluid and add a bottle of lucas transfix as well
 
I never had any luck breaking the tube loose from the pan. On one of my cars I had to cut one of the support straps cause of same problem of bolt would not break free. I felt like one support strap would be enough support. Ive done the compression fitting on one of my cars. It worked OK, but replaced it later (just bugged me). Also used a floor jack once to break the fitting to pan free but it ruined the threads.
 
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Sunday did not work out too well. I used a scissors jack and wrench to jam inner nut in place. Impact gun & crows foot wrench broke the tube nut loose. But not quickly and just barely - 2/3 of a turn. Nut would not rotate any further. During this process jam wrench would slip off jack. I had to reposition wrench and retighten jack several times. I also reversed impact gun to rotate nut back to tightened position to start the removal process again. At some point I noticed AT fluid dripping out from tube connection. At first I thought the fluid was seeping out from the tube-inner nut connection. Then I realized that it was coming out from the inner nut connection to the pan. So much for Plan A.

On to Plan B. I cut the tube about 2" below the lower support bracket. Once the tube was cut it would rotate freely even thought the locking outer nut was only loosened 2/3 of a rotation. I removed the pan. I placed the inner nut, with tube and pan connected, in a vise to try to remove the outer locking nut. No further progress was made. During the loosening effort the pan separated from the inner nut. At this point I could see that the nut had not been welded to the pan. It had been pressed into hole in pan.

As I now had complete access to both the inner nut and the outer nut I tried again to remove the outer nut. Placed inner nut in vise and impact gun/crows foot wrench on outer nut. Going between loosening and tightening and prolonged loosening effort made no further progress. The outer nut was now showing the result of the sustained impact gun abuse so I stopped trying to get the nut off.

On Monday I took the pan and tube nut assembly to a welding shop. They welded the large inner nut to the pan. I installed pan. I made a splint to hold the 2 tube ends in position as the outer nut was tightened. The splint is a 3" piece of 2x4. A 5/8" hole was drilled thought the 3-1/2" length. 2 holes were drilled perpendicular to the 5/8" hole. These were for 3" deck screws to hold the 2 pieces of the splint in place. The wood piece was cut in half along the 5/8" hole center line. The 2 pieces were loosely screwed together and slid onto the lower tube section. With the lower tube section rotated into position the splint was tightened and the hut was tightened. When the splint was removed the tube ends were not in alignment. Tightening the nut must have caused a shift in the tube which did not become apparent until the splint was removed. I tried again with a similar result. The misalignment was 3/16" to 1/4". I attempted to correct this under the car. I noticed while trying to bend the tube there was some movement in the side of the pan near the tube/pan weld.

Removed pan and placed section of tube closest to pan in a vise. I measured distance from tube to a fixed surface. Then started to bend tube to where it needed to be. After each bending effort I checked result on car. It took 4 tries but the misalignment was reduced to about 1/32". I then eliminated this by bending tube with pan installed.

On Tuesday I took pan with tightened tube back to welding shop. They soldered everything together. I slid a 2-1/2" section of 5/8" fuel line and 2 clamps on lower tube and installed pan. Slid the fuel line up onto the upper section of tube. The filter replacement was finally done. I flushed the fluid and called it a day.

On Wednesday I took the car off of the 4 jack stands, lowered the car and went for a drive. All is well.

In hindsite was it worth it to replace a filter that turned out to be dirty but had no physical pieces collected in it? The labor/time, frustration and extra $50 expense was not worth it. The knowledge gained about the internal condition of the AT and the resulting piece of mind for me does make the experience worth it.

I want to thank everyone for all of the comments and info. Except for the one about whether or not the impact gun needed a drink. The question might have been more accurate if the question had not been asked if the impact gun needed a drink but rather if the impact gun operator needed a drink.
 
Well good deal. You probably did one of the most frustrating jobs on Volvo. On one of my volvo I made a whole new dip stick out of 5/8 or 3/4 copper tubing. Hope all stays buttoned up. You could always go to pick n pull and get you a back up pan and d.s. to keep on hand. I keep one on hand all the time now.
 
Jeez that sounds like an ordeal. Glad you got it all sorted out in the end and could find a shop to fix the pan up.

Out of curiousity do you have a picture of the filter you replaced? When I had my pan off to do my kickdown cable and replaced mine, it just looked a little discolored and otherwise appeared clean. Wondering if I just got lucky and mine had been (relatively) recently changed by someone else.
 
Billh said:
Sunday did not work out too well. I used a scissors jack and wrench to jam inner nut in place. Impact gun & crows foot wrench broke the tube nut loose. But not quickly and just barely - 2/3 of a turn. Nut would not rotate any further. During this process jam wrench would slip off jack. I had to reposition wrench and retighten jack several times. I also reversed impact gun to rotate nut back to tightened position to start the removal process again. At some point I noticed AT fluid dripping out from tube connection. At first I thought the fluid was seeping out from the tube-inner nut connection. Then I realized that it was coming out from the inner nut connection to the pan. So much for Plan A.

On to Plan B. I cut the tube about 2" below the lower support bracket. Once the tube was cut it would rotate freely even thought the locking outer nut was only loosened 2/3 of a rotation. I removed the pan. I placed the inner nut, with tube and pan connected, in a vise to try to remove the outer locking nut. No further progress was made. During the loosening effort the pan separated from the inner nut. At this point I could see that the nut had not been welded to the pan. It had been pressed into hole in pan.

As I now had complete access to both the inner nut and the outer nut I tried again to remove the outer nut. Placed inner nut in vise and impact gun/crows foot wrench on outer nut. Going between loosening and tightening and prolonged loosening effort made no further progress. The outer nut was now showing the result of the sustained impact gun abuse so I stopped trying to get the nut off.

On Monday I took the pan and tube nut assembly to a welding shop. They welded the large inner nut to the pan. I installed pan. I made a splint to hold the 2 tube ends in position as the outer nut was tightened. The splint is a 3" piece of 2x4. A 5/8" hole was drilled thought the 3-1/2" length. 2 holes were drilled perpendicular to the 5/8" hole. These were for 3" deck screws to hold the 2 pieces of the splint in place. The wood piece was cut in half along the 5/8" hole center line. The 2 pieces were loosely screwed together and slid onto the lower tube section. With the lower tube section rotated into position the splint was tightened and the hut was tightened. When the splint was removed the tube ends were not in alignment. Tightening the nut must have caused a shift in the tube which did not become apparent until the splint was removed. I tried again with a similar result. The misalignment was 3/16" to 1/4". I attempted to correct this under the car. I noticed while trying to bend the tube there was some movement in the side of the pan near the tube/pan weld.

Removed pan and placed section of tube closest to pan in a vise. I measured distance from tube to a fixed surface. Then started to bend tube to where it needed to be. After each bending effort I checked result on car. It took 4 tries but the misalignment was reduced to about 1/32". I then eliminated this by bending tube with pan installed.

On Tuesday I took pan with tightened tube back to welding shop. They soldered everything together. I slid a 2-1/2" section of 5/8" fuel line and 2 clamps on lower tube and installed pan. Slid the fuel line up onto the upper section of tube. The filter replacement was finally done. I flushed the fluid and called it a day.

On Wednesday I took the car off of the 4 jack stands, lowered the car and went for a drive. All is well.

In hindsite was it worth it to replace a filter that turned out to be dirty but had no physical pieces collected in it? The labor/time, frustration and extra $50 expense was not worth it. The knowledge gained about the internal condition of the AT and the resulting piece of mind for me does make the experience worth it.

I want to thank everyone for all of the comments and info. Except for the one about whether or not the impact gun needed a drink. The question might have been more accurate if the question had not been asked if the impact gun needed a drink but rather if the impact gun operator needed a drink.
Click to expand...

I almost told you this, however, the peanut gallery chimed in and it was too late. There is no filter. As you found, there is a strainer. Just draining the pan and then performing a flush of the system is what I do on all the AW-7X transmissions. Never mess with the fill tube. This should be stickied to the top of the maintenance section. The job almost always goes sideways when someone messes with the fill tube. Those may be an interference thread from the factory. They usually strip when the tube is removed.
 
there's some important lessons to be learned here...

first off on your starter bolts: How long / How many extensions were you using?
 
I have never had a transmission pan I wasn't able to undo the nut on.

Key tips: soak the nut first, I use wurth HHS 200 spray grease, the more the better, do it hot so it soaks in better

Get good fitting spanners, shouldn't be too hard
 
Billh said:
My 91 745t has 134K miles. The AT has no issues.
Click to expand...
Billh said:
I don't know when the AT filter was last changed. The drained fluid was an unsurprisingly dark color. I've read on this forum that because of likely rust on the filler tube connection at the AT, it might be better to leave the filler tube connected and drop pan.

First I tried removing the 2 starter bolts which the 2 filler tube brackets are held in place by. My 600 ft lb impact gun could not loosen either bolt. Them I used crows foot wrenches with 1/2" breaker bar and long handle ratchet on the tube connector at the AT. Couldn't break anything loose. I tried the impact gun once more for a longer time but no loosened bolts.

Any suggestions?
]Sunday did not work out too well. I used a scissors jack and wrench to jam inner nut in place. Impact gun & crows foot wrench broke the tube nut loose. But not quickly and just barely - 2/3 of a turn. Nut would not rotate any further. During this process jam wrench would slip off jack. I had to reposition wrench and retighten jack several times. I also reversed impact gun to rotate nut back to tightened position to start the removal process again. At some point I noticed AT fluid dripping out from tube connection. At first I thought the fluid was seeping out from the tube-inner nut connection. Then I realized that it was coming out from the inner nut connection to the pan. So much for Plan A.

On to Plan B. I cut the tube about 2" below the lower support bracket. Once the tube was cut it would rotate freely even thought the locking outer nut was only loosened 2/3 of a rotation. I removed the pan. I placed the inner nut, with tube and pan connected, in a vise to try to remove the outer locking nut. No further progress was made. During the loosening effort the pan separated from the inner nut. At this point I could see that the nut had not been welded to the pan. It had been pressed into hole in pan.

As I now had complete access to both the inner nut and the outer nut I tried again to remove the outer nut. Placed inner nut in vise and impact gun/crows foot wrench on outer nut. Going between loosening and tightening and prolonged loosening effort made no further progress. The outer nut was now showing the result of the sustained impact gun abuse so I stopped trying to get the nut off.

On Monday I took the pan and tube nut assembly to a welding shop. They welded the large inner nut to the pan. I installed pan. I made a splint to hold the 2 tube ends in position as the outer nut was tightened. The splint is a 3" piece of 2x4. A 5/8" hole was drilled thought the 3-1/2" length. 2 holes were drilled perpendicular to the 5/8" hole. These were for 3" deck screws to hold the 2 pieces of the splint in place. The wood piece was cut in half along the 5/8" hole center line. The 2 pieces were loosely screwed together and slid onto the lower tube section. With the lower tube section rotated into position the splint was tightened and the hut was tightened. When the splint was removed the tube ends were not in alignment. Tightening the nut must have caused a shift in the tube which did not become apparent until the splint was removed. I tried again with a similar result. The misalignment was 3/16" to 1/4". I attempted to correct this under the car. I noticed while trying to bend the tube there was some movement in the side of the pan near the tube/pan weld.

Removed pan and placed section of tube closest to pan in a vise. I measured distance from tube to a fixed surface. Then started to bend tube to where it needed to be. After each bending effort I checked result on car. It took 4 tries but the misalignment was reduced to about 1/32". I then eliminated this by bending tube with pan installed.

On Tuesday I took pan with tightened tube back to welding shop. They soldered everything together. I slid a 2-1/2" section of 5/8" fuel line and 2 clamps on lower tube and installed pan. Slid the fuel line up onto the upper section of tube. The filter replacement was finally done. I flushed the fluid and called it a day.

On Wednesday I took the car off of the 4 jack stands, lowered the car and went for a drive. All is well.

In hindsite was it worth it to replace a filter that turned out to be dirty but had no physical pieces collected in it? The labor/time, frustration and extra $50 expense was not worth it. The knowledge gained about the internal condition of the AT and the resulting piece of mind for me does make the experience worth it.

I want to thank everyone for all of the comments and info. Except for the one about whether or not the impact gun needed a drink. The question might have been more accurate if the question had not been asked if the impact gun needed a drink but rather if the impact gun operator needed a drink.
Click to expand...

In hindsite was it worth it to replace a filter that turned out to be dirty but had no physical pieces collected in it? The labor/time, frustration and extra $50 expense was not worth it. The knowledge gained about the internal condition of the AT and the resulting piece of mind for me does make the experience worth it.
Click to expand...

In hind-hind sight:
you took a symptomless AT apart.
you removed a filter that had dirt on it, a filter that did its job and was still doing it's job.
it was not clogged, it was not preventing the AT from working.

The knowledge gained about the internal condition of the AT and the resulting piece of mind for me does make the experience worth it.
Click to expand...
seems like a mental fallacy

Working symptomless AT with fresh fluid that has an unknown condition filter, but consistent with a nonplugged filter, as it is symptomless

vs.

Working symptomless AT with fresh fluid and a new filter, with a janky welded up nut and a soldered, bent up fatigued pipe, that is much, much more likely to fail, stranding youm and possibly destroying your trans.

what would you buy?

that 2nd one isn't worth a premium, by far not worth the value of your effort
and indeed, much more likely to fail now.

would anyone here really pay twice the price for the 2nd one?

I don'tm qwant tohurt your feelings, but you didn't come out ahead on this.
 
2manyturbos said:
I almost told you this, however, the peanut gallery chimed in and it was too late. There is no filter. As you found, there is a strainer. Just draining the pan and then performing a flush of the system is what I do on all the AW-7X transmissions. Never mess with the fill tube. This should be stickied to the top of the maintenance section. The job almost always goes sideways when someone messes with the fill tube. Those may be an interference thread from the factory. They usually strip when the tube is removed.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I agree that pulling the screen is unnecessary because I’ve never seen one plugged even with really nasty neglected fluid. However I can’t say I’ve run into the thread galling you speak of. I’ve probably removed the dipstick tube on 6 or 7 Volvo’s and haven’t had one that a line wrench coupled to my noodle arms couldn’t handle and haven’t notice any damage or unwillingness to seal afterwards. Maybe I got lucky?
 
I think so. Even the California Washington and Oregon cars that I get have major problems with those tubes coming off. Must be your super dry Utah climate.
 
2manyturbos said:
I think so. Even the California Washington and Oregon cars that I get have major problems with those tubes coming off. Must be your super dry Utah climate.
Click to expand...

True it?s dry here, but we?re not devoid of rusty vehicles do winter road treatments. Do you use line wrenches?
 
Yes. Tubing wrench. I’m not the only one here that has encountered the problem. I’ve sold several pans complete with the tube to people on here that attempted to remove the tube. I’m sure they were meant to be removable. There is so little clearance between the threads it doesn’t take much corrosion to make them seize and destroy the threads if you force them.
 
I'm in Delaware, where cars rot like a chicken left in your trunk on a hot day. I have no idea why my dipstick came off and went back on almost without a fight.
 
I noticed the problems with the stuck tubes while doing periodic maintenance. I took it to a transmission shop. I think they cut it off with a torch and re-welded the pan and fitting. It wasn't expensive and saved a lot of grief. It isn't a matter of getting a bigger hammer.


-Lazarus
 
Hmm. This is the first time that my advice has caused trouble for someone. I should put a warning on my posts.
 
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Khrrck: No photo - filter is gone. It was discolored from dark fluid but no solid bits.

philski o'flood: Socket, universal joint, 10" & 5" extensions.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you took a symptomless AT apart." You have really boosted my confidance as I didn't realize that removing the pan and replacing the filter would be considered the same as taking the AT apart. The next time I remove the engine valve cover and replace the gasket and maybe boldly adjust the valves, I will be able to claim I took the engine apart.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you removed a filter that had dirt on it, a filter that did its job and was still doing it's job. it was not clogged, it was not preventing the AT from working." You're correct. But neither you nor I could know and comment on that until after the filter was removed.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - seems like a mental fallacy". Could be but this one will have to take its place among all of the others pretty much being ignored.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - with a janky welded up nut and a soldered, bent up fatigued pipe, that is much, much more likely to fail". I've attached 3 photos for you and others to evaluate the jankyness of the work and the likelihood of being much, much more likely to fail. The 3rd photo shows the relationship of the upper & lower tube sections after the welding/soldering was completed and the lower tube section was bent/nudged into its final position.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - what would you buy?" The choice is irrelevant as I don't expect to be selling car.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - that 2nd one isn't worth a premium, by far not worth the value of your effort and indeed, much more likely to fail now." Where did you get the idea that my little project resulted in a premium selling point for the car? That conclusion might be considered a mental fallacy. On the other hand, as the AT pan can now be removed easily, perhaps the car now does have a premium feature.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - would anyone here really pay twice the price for the 2nd one?" You are right again, twice the price does seem a bit much for a relatively small modification to the original equipment. Perhaps I should test the market asking just a modest 50 percent premium.

Having driven the car for a few days I must say the car does seem to shift more smoothly when shifting manually and when parked and sliding the shift lever through the gears. This seemingly improved shifting could be just a psychological protection measure or perhaps it is related to the de-rusting of the shift linkage and replacing the bushings or both or neither - I think I could use a mental fallacy now.
 

Attachments

  • AT Tube - Inner Nut Welded To Pan 3 IMG_8027.jpg
    AT Tube - Inner Nut Welded To Pan 3 IMG_8027.jpg
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  • AT Tube - Inner & Outer Nute & Tube Soldered 3 IMG_8032.jpg
    AT Tube - Inner & Outer Nute & Tube Soldered 3 IMG_8032.jpg
    72.9 KB · Views: 32
  • AT Tube - Connection Point Ready For Fuel Line 3 IMG_8017.jpg
    AT Tube - Connection Point Ready For Fuel Line 3 IMG_8017.jpg
    53.5 KB · Views: 31
Billh said:
Khrrck: No photo - filter is gone. It was discolored from dark fluid but no solid bits.

philski o'flood: Socket, universal joint, 10" & 5" extensions.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you took a symptomless AT apart." You have really boosted my confidance as I didn't realize that removing the pan and replacing the filter would be considered the same as taking the AT apart. The next time I remove the engine valve cover and replace the gasket and maybe boldly adjust the valves, I will be able to claim I took the engine apart.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you removed a filter that had dirt on it, a filter that did its job and was still doing it's job. it was not clogged, it was not preventing the AT from working." You're correct. But neither you nor I could know and comment on that until after the filter was removed.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - seems like a mental fallacy". Could be but this one will have to take its place among all of the others pretty much being ignored.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - with a janky welded up nut and a soldered, bent up fatigued pipe, that is much, much more likely to fail". I've attached 3 photos for you and others to evaluate the jankyness of the work and the likelihood of being much, much more likely to fail. The 3rd photo shows the relationship of the upper & lower tube sections after the welding/soldering was completed and the lower tube section was bent/nudged into its final position.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - what would you buy?" The choice is irrelevant as I don't expect to be selling car.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - that 2nd one isn't worth a premium, by far not worth the value of your effort and indeed, much more likely to fail now." Where did you get the idea that my little project resulted in a premium selling point for the car? That conclusion might be considered a mental fallacy. On the other hand, as the AT pan can now be removed easily, perhaps the car now does have a premium feature.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - would anyone here really pay twice the price for the 2nd one?" You are right again, twice the price does seem a bit much for a relatively small modification to the original equipment. Perhaps I should test the market asking just a modest 50 percent premium.

Having driven the car for a few days I must say the car does seem to shift more smoothly when shifting manually and when parked and sliding the shift lever through the gears. This seemingly improved shifting could be just a psychological protection measure or perhaps it is related to the de-rusting of the shift linkage and replacing the bushings or both or neither - I think I could use a mental fallacy now.
Click to expand...

lol
buddy, I don't think you got my point.

you didn't know what was going to happen when you started, and **** went south badly, agreed?

In no way am I talking about you selling this stuff.
It is simply referencing what you have now versus what you started with.

apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you took a symptomless AT apart." You have really boosted my confidance as I didn't realize that removing the pan and replacing the filter would be considered the same as taking the AT apart. The next time I remove the engine valve cover and replace the gasket and maybe boldly adjust the valves, I will be able to claim I took the engine apart.
Click to expand...
"taking apart" - unsealing a not leaking pan, taking parts off of a working AT -"taking apart"
you know this, stop the wordplay.


apachechef: "Re your hind-hind site - you removed a filter that had dirt on it, a filter that did its job and was still doing it's job. it was not clogged, it was not preventing the AT from working." You're correct. But neither you nor I could know and comment on that until after the filter was removed.
Click to expand...
INCORRECT a "no issues" AT doesn't have a clogged filter...
cracking open a non leaking pan to "fix" a "no-issues" AT? hmm.


listen buddy, to help you imagine things and see it clearly, and maybe see "sunk costs" fallacy, and maybe figure out some non-concrete thinking...

have ya heard of hypothetical questions helping clear up complex issues?

suppose you crashed your car.

and you bought another AT car with a "no -issues" trans, just like you had at the start, unknown insides, would you follow the same path as you did with your last "no issues" trans?

would you leave it alone, change the fluid and enjoy another 134k miles?

would you swap in your cobbled up trans with the "fixed pipe" and a known clean filter?

me, I'd take a fresh fluid, no issues, no leak AT with an unknown filter, intact filler pipe over yours with the welded/soldered pipe, even if someone offered to swap it in for free.

but hey, to each his own, I hope you enjoy another carefree fruitful 134k. Peace.

not attacking, just trying to help the next guy in your position make a good decision after reading your thread.

a parting question to ponder.
when you examined the filter of your "no-issues" trans, what you saw compelled you to replace the filter and keep using the trans.
what could you have seen that would have changed that outcome?
if it was clean, you would have kept using the trans too right?
if it was much dirtier, would you gotten a new trans?
if it had a few chunks, would you gotten a new trans?

After you drained the fluid, and found it was dark, but chunkless, glitter free and without sandy residue, you looked back up at it and thought " I need to examine the filter, and that test of eyeballing the filter, will determine what I do differenjtly."

what were you going to do differently according to the possible test outcomes?
 
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