low power output? b230a rally motor

right ok! defo will skim the life out of this head!

Shoestring, i had a google of where you are from, and omg, your not far from manchester, like me, however a completly differnt one. So many place names i recognise, i had no idea! its quite funny. thanks for the help!

Well yeah, we don't call it "New" England for nothing!

A .5mm headgasket will be too thin!!! You will hit the pistons into the head. I will edit this post with more information later but I have to go for now!

culberro said:

You need like 11:1-12:1 CR to take advantage of that cam, and you can probably get away with more. -Without knowing the actual measurements and valve action, I would be hesitant to go over 12:1 SCR, but yes, that number should be fine. It will need less total ignition timing at WOT than stock, we're currently plenty safe at just under 30? of ignition timing on our 92 octane pump gas.

The unmodified head is a huge bottle beck, especially on the exhaust port. -Yes and no. A stock 531 head is capable of more than 160 crank hp.

The stock intake manifold is a huge bottle neck as well. -Yes.

Kyles (klr142) makes like 155whp (solid torque curve!) using a b21 k-jet manifold, a very modified head, 12:1 CR, and a much larger cam than the KLR T5. The issue is the intake manifold... -That was actually a SMALLER cam than the KLR S/T5, a mildly modified head(aside from a lot shaved off and opened up chamber) and only at <11:1 SCR from my calculations with the stock headgasket we used at that time. That was just with the Enem K13 camshaft which is 12.5mm of lift and "280?" advertised duration. How it measures compared to the S/T5's "300?" advertised duration is anyone's guess. We don't really know how big that cam is as we don't know at what height either of these two duration numbers are measured. - Now we have more shaved off the head and a .036" headgasket, more port and chamber work(thank you, sir!) with the Enem C2 camshaft and >11.7:1 SCR with a cranking compression of 200-220psi with warm engine and .016-.017" valve clearances(adjusted and checked last week).

A modified head , 45mm DCOEs, and a similar cam spec has been shown (time and time again) to net close to 240 crank HP. -Show me ONE example that a KLR S/T5 cam did 240 crank HP.

Click to expand...

Avtovaz said:

right ok, i thought the 531 was a really good flowing head over the 530. Everyone goes on about the 531 as if it makes the massive power as it is. -Massive, no, more, yes. I would expect your setup to make more than it does but without seeing your ignition timing and air/fuel ratio, it's hard to say if the tuning of what you have is optimized.

my friend had a boat motor 2.5, 531 head, skimmed it right up, v cam i think he said it was, on split 50 carbs, dizzy. It was doing 156 bhp at the wheels on his escort, so when i was looking to do my engine i was expecting more as it had the cam etc. He had the cast exhaust manifold too. -The key here is he is using split 50mm carbs(and more compression from being shaved more than yours in ADDITION to more volume from the larger stroke going into that smaller chambered head). That intake is WAY better flowing than what you have for an intake.

I haven't said this before but my inlet is modified, its 59mm, and slightly opened up, i cant do this but no one will know. -I thought it was 63mm? Regardless, you want to pull the intake manifold back off and port it to improve flow as much as possible, especially around the injectors is the word on the street.

Click to expand...

Avtovaz said:

right ok the ports make sense then, adn im only at like 11:1 compression. maybe i should get another head and try again but use a 530 and go from there.

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There's no major reason to go back to a 530 in a race engine if you are planning on using a large enough camshaft(the S/T5 is "large enough") and are chasing peak HP. The 530 modified similarly may make more low end torque for pulling out of corners at low rpm if your gearbox isn't close ratio, but I wouldn't bother going backward at this point. Shave a little more off the head to get the compression closer to 12:1 for more power across the board. It isn't going to be a 20hp increase from just that, but it will help. If you can have the intake and exhaust ports cleaned up at the same time, as well as port the intake and exhaust manifold(if you haven't already cleaned it up), that might get you another 15-20hp if you're lucky.

Do you happen to know what the combustion chamber volume is in the cylinder head? Are your pistons stock B230F pistons with the dish?

One of the downsides of the S/T5 is the 108LSA. It's on the wider side of things which will have a little less midrange punch compared to something with a 104-106LSA, but it'll idle better and have better top end pull. Not a huge deal breaker here as it isn't far off, just something maybe worth mentioning.

fastcomet said:

If you don’t want to pull the head. Get a smaller cam with more duration on exhaust side. If your stock compression then your cam is way to big.

Click to expand...

He has higher compression already and we don't know how "big" this camshaft actually is.

Jussi Alanko said:

With stock intake manifold and a 531 head with 46/38 valves, unported makes 210hv with timos 13.10 camshaft and a original intake manifold.

Same combination with non-ported 530 head makes 200hv.

If heads were ported numbers will be something about 240/230hv.
530 head ->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJUfQ1a5-JM
531 head ->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgpnXDQLefU

Click to expand...

I'm curious what that camshaft is for duration, but yes, I've seen those videos before and was very impressed. It is also using STOCK, yellow injectors, so things seem a bit odd... I assume the intake manifold is ported, the compression is over 12:1 and the tune is perfect. That also includes their Type 3 exhaust manifold(44.5mm primaries, 51mm secondaries into 63.5mm exhaust).

Dirty Rick said:

A 300? cam is not a good thing on a relatively stock motor. It is going to need a healthy boost in compression to work at all, but then the RPM range it works at is way above normal street use.

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Again, we don't know what the 300? was measured at and he does have higher compression. It will be better with more than he's currently running though, yes.

Avtovaz said:

i had asked Timos ages ago for the price of a camshaft, and it hink he gave it me but when i asked to order it he never replied, and i mailed a few times.

But he said they run at least 12,2mm lift 286 dur, in the 213hk engines lift is about 13mm and over 300 dur.

so what should i do to my engine then? if i have a go at the exhaust ports, and skim the head so i get 12:1 static? will that make 180 bhp with the cast manifold? I could make my own exhaust manifold but id rather loose 5bhp than spend the time making one as this engine is in a RHD bmw compact.

I do actually own the bigger valves that fit in the head, i forget their sizes, maybe i could get a 530 head and port that and put these valves into it. keep the 531 as it is.

i dont know what to do but i had a m44 bmw engine in the car before, it made 180 bhp and 160 lbs, now i was told the 2.3 would be a lot more torque and 190 bhp by everyone i talked to, but so far its far from that.

thanks!

Click to expand...

Your previous engine was probably better, except it may have less low end torque than the 2.3L you're going to end up with. I don't know if you need to go bigger valves, but it likely will make more power and you can open up the ports for better flow at the same time. I don't think you're going to gain much by making a custom exhaust manifold over porting the current one. 5-10hp max at 190 crank hp, I assume?

Jussi Alanko said:

If needed more power port the 531 with bigger valves and install a cam that has max lift about 14.5mm and duration at 0.050" something about 280 degrees.

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280? at .050" is HUGE. The Enem C2 we're running measures around 14mm of lift and 264? at .050" and is good for 210hp+. The KLR S/T5 is good for 190hp or so. Both of these HP numbers are from Erland Cox and his calculations. I'm not certain what he is using for intake/exhaust manifolds in these calculations, though.

classicswede said:

On the throttle body you can machine it out and use the K jet throttle plate

Click to expand...

What do you mean here? He's also using a larger throttle body already.

thankyou again for the reply! its helping a lot.

with the head gasket, what one should i use? as i say the 0.5 cometic one is on it now, but its been on and off that head 3 times now, and i am a little worried about using it again.

one thing i have noticed also is you run 92 octane fuel, we have 95 and 99 available here, and i can use an octane booster if i wish also. But however, means my 160 bhp at yours would be like 150! Is the 531 unleaded too? i never thought about this before!

the bmw engine was 180 bhp and 160 lbs as i say, but the volvo motor now has more low down grunt, but the bmw was pulling harder over 4500. I think if i can get more out of the volvo and it did 180 bhp it would have more lbs than the bmw so it would be the better motor.

Oh also the engine its a b230A, so 3cc? dished pistons, its on a Lexus is200 6 speed box, ratios are really good, its on a 4.1 diff, with 195/65/15 tyres, it was on a 5.0 diff ratio with the bmw motor, but i reconded id be reving the volvo less so would work out about the same.

the rallies are a lot of stop starting and up to 60-70 mph, mainly from 30-50mph.

with the exhaust ports, is there a mod i can do that makes a big difference with out being hours of messing? As in, if im going to at best get 190 bhp out of it, can i get nearly there myself?

With the cast manifold also, is there a place to take metal from and not too?



how come some of the factory cams can make such big power? The K cam i hear is good.

My mates boat motor was 2mm from the 531, cast exhaust manifold, k cam, 2500cc, split 50s, 156 at the wheels.




what i also find interesting about the bmw engine, s the exhaust was tubular, not like tony law type standards obviously, but it was 38mm outside dia, and worked the 180 bhp of the bmw motor. red line was 7k.


edit, i dont know if this helps but the cam spec i have


Opening Duration 300 degrees
cam lift 12.9mm
Lobe center line angle 108 degrees
TDC lifting about 4.5mm.
Valve clearance 0.35 mm

Avtovaz said:

thankyou again for the reply! its helping a lot.

with the head gasket, what one should i use? as i say the 0.5 cometic one is on it now, but its been on and off that head 3 times now, and i am a little worried about using it again.

one thing i have noticed also is you run 92 octane fuel, we have 95 and 99 available here, and i can use an octane booster if i wish also. But however, means my 160 bhp at yours would be like 150! Is the 531 unleaded too? i never thought about this before!

the bmw engine was 180 bhp and 160 lbs as i say, but the volvo motor now has more low down grunt, but the bmw was pulling harder over 4500. I think if i can get more out of the volvo and it did 180 bhp it would have more lbs than the bmw so it would be the better motor.

Oh also the engine its a b230A, so 3cc? dished pistons, its on a Lexus is200 6 speed box, ratios are really good, its on a 4.1 diff, with 195/65/15 tyres, it was on a 5.0 diff ratio with the bmw motor, but i reconded id be reving the volvo less so would work out about the same.

the rallies are a lot of stop starting and up to 60-70 mph, mainly from 30-50mph.

with the exhaust ports, is there a mod i can do that makes a big difference with out being hours of messing? As in, if im going to at best get 190 bhp out of it, can i get nearly there myself?

With the cast manifold also, is there a place to take metal from and not too?



how come some of the factory cams can make such big power? The K cam i hear is good.

My mates boat motor was 2mm from the 531, cast exhaust manifold, k cam, 2500cc, split 50s, 156 at the wheels.




what i also find interesting about the bmw engine, s the exhaust was tubular, not like tony law type standards obviously, but it was 38mm outside dia, and worked the 180 bhp of the bmw motor. red line was 7k.


edit, i dont know if this helps but the cam spec i have


Opening Duration 300 degrees
cam lift 12.9mm
Lobe center line angle 108 degrees
TDC lifting about 4.5mm.
Valve clearance 0.35 mm

Click to expand...

Your cam is good for at least 200whp.
What you need is a head flow, in na-engine especially intake flow.
You need to port that 531 and change valves to 46/38, porting is difficult without experience or flowbench, so you need to find a speed shop that made porting to you, they usually give you flow rates as well.

Your head gasget thickness depens how much piston is shy from the deck or huw much it will come off the deck, you should aim to 1mm squish thickness.

How deep are dishes in b230a engine? if they aren't very deep you could use lathe to make these pistons flat top, then you had to mill same amount of material at deck surface, then you could mill couple mm at your head, you should aim at 13cr, all depends on your cam. you find most important data at your cam card then you could calculate your dynamic cr, it should be something about 8.25:1.

Are you running carburetors, if so, use 48-50mm fajs dcoe:s and a good intake manifold.
YOu also should have those carburetors and intake manifold when you are flow benching your head, then you see atraight away what kind of flow losses intake and carbs produces. After that it is a simple calculation which tells you how much you could have power, if your tune is spot on.

With a good ported 531 head at 46/38valves and a 50mm dcoes you should get 220hp from wheels. but at this kind of power level you need a good exhaust manifold, not those kl-racings crappy 4-2-1 sets, this is kind of what you need:



Good collector and a tapered pipe after collector is needed.

A lot of the problem is the manifold is pretty much stuck at being teh cast one due to space and the intake manifold is restricted to being the original F engine manifold

was just watching a drifts and lifts video i saw ages ago. At this time of the vid, he had a head by dennis blom [is that pfracing?], standard valves, timos 1310 camshaft in a 531 head, he ported his inlet manifold lh2.4 that has 55mm inlet, and kl racing exhaust manifold.

CLICK HERE

the power is dream power for me, 171 he says at the wheels . i havnt that at the flywheel and we probably have better fuel here.

Correct. I don't know if his intake manifold was ported, but if you just listened to what he said in the video just now, you know better than I.

You don't want his powerband, though, it's crap until 4500rpm. His tuning is questionable, though.

it is ported only around the injectors it looked like, saw that in another video..

What is the best cam to go for if i wanted low end power?

I have been looking at my old 530 head, and it looks quite easy to get in and make it work, but that is using a belt sander. I take it also, using the standard valves would be about as good as the cast manifold and the lh2.4 would do? I am going to get another 530 head and port that, i have decided on this as its ?70, and also, if i mess it up, i can go back to the 531.


i just reread what my mate put about his 2500cc boat engine

156bhp and 169lbs ft torque @ the wheels

that is so far away from my engine, he was 531 with no work done to it, skimmed 2mm, k cam, split 50;s , cast exhaust. that would suit my bmw so well, the torque would pull its weight much better.

I see dai does the k cam and the H cam new too.

im just having another read of what everyone has said, and bits and pieces etc.

What im after is the b230 to have as much torque as possible, the roads where i rally are all hilly, and there is a lot of stop starts on the events. Maybe stop 100 times or more in the night. The events are on the public roads, they are very tight and twisty. So what i am thinking is, the t5 is too big of a camshaft, it wants to make power too far up teh rev range, and at the moment its not working as i havnt the compression.

So, if i get a H camshaft from Dai, a 530 and port it myself, keep the standard valves, but unshroud as much as i can and make the chamber the shape of a 531, skim it to 12:1 or more we have 99 ron fuel easily available, i cant modify the intake legally, keep the cast manifold exhaust with its 50mm down pipes.

my mates escort did massive torque, and he said he changed gear at 5,500, that is perfect for me. Is this a good plan?

thanks


edit rally mon on youtube

If you want torque why do you want an H or K cam? I'd suggest something like a V15 or even a V16 cam from enem. The V15 is actually called the torque cam with a powerband from 2k-6k rpms. Mine makes power to 7k rpm.

basically, i thought i knew a bit about engines before i started to tune this volvo engine, but now i havnt a clue what im doing !!

I like the idea of the v15 but by the time one gets here to me in the uk its like ?420-450, the H is new is ?146 plus a little bit of postage from Dai.

i thought he had the k cam but i cant see it now, he has the vx, h, t4, t5 cams all roughly the same price.

A broad power band is what you need and low gearing, you can afford to have a top speed of 100MPH on the rev limit in top gear

yes, but even when it had the 5.0 and the is200 box, it had a fair top speed ...

its now a 4.1, but i recon it wont rev liek the m44


If it had rogers penta motor it would be some car.

You can get equivalent cams to the enem ones from other places. Dai can probably get you something. If not check out KL racing. They have reground cams that will give you a broad powerband. The reason enem cams cost is that they are newly ground cams. Something like the specs of a V16 should work well for you.

Sounds like what you need is a lot of rear axle ratio and enough rpm to support that.

the ratio can be changed back, but i havnt the power atm i need to get that bit right first.

the cam, thing is you look at the tb cam chart, and the v16 looks good, little duration etc, good lift, but then you look at the kg0002 and its 300 degs, and says lot s of low end torque.


I just dont get it.

I have another response started, but again it got too long for me to complete. I'm silly like that, sorry!

I don't know how you're running a .5mm/.020" headgasket, are you CERTAIN that's what you're running? Your pistons should be hitting the cylinder head when you rev it up if you are using such a thin headgasket and your B230A has pistons that stick up above the block's deck like all the B230s I've seen do. Cometic doesn't even make a gasket that thin that I know of, but maybe they do?

Avtovaz said:

the cam, thing is you look at the tb cam chart, and the v16 looks good, little duration etc, good lift, but then you look at the kg0002 and its 300 degs, and says lot s of low end torque.

I just dont get it.

Click to expand...

Those duration numbers aren't measured at the same lift. I don't think you're going to get what you want with a K or H cam. It'll be basically the same power numbers you have now, even with a ported 530 head and stock valves. I dyno'd 135whp or so on my big valve 530 cylinder head with the ENEM K13 camshaft, K camshaft AND H camshaft. That head didn't have the valve seats and port throats opened up to match the valves though, and it only had .040"/1mm shaved off the head with a .040"/1mm headgasket.

I am not certain your KL S/T5 camshaft is too large, but you want static compression likely around 12:1. Even with only 11:1, you should still have over 160hp at the crank using a near stock 531 and that camshaft. Something isn't quite right. What was your air-fuel ratio? What was your ignition timing at full throttle? Did you play with camshaft timing? Your setup shouldn't be only 160hp, I would expect.

We did mid-150whp with an Enem K13 that is a smaller camshaft(only slightly larger than an H) and around 11:1 or so, but that is a more mild camshaft than yours. Lots of torque from 3000rpm all the way to 6000rpm though. Unshroud the valves, shave more off the head for a smaller combustion chamber for closer to 12:1 and run it with better tuning.

If you want to try something "cheap" and easy, put an H cam in it without doing anything to the head. I don't know that you need to swap to a 530, although its smaller intake ports may help with torque at lower rpm. I think you don't need that though, just more compression/flow and to figure out why your current power level is as low as it is.

dl242gt said:

You can get equivalent cams to the enem ones from other places. Dai can probably get you something. If not check out KL racing. They have reground cams that will give you a broad powerband. The reason enem cams cost is that they are newly ground cams. Something like the specs of a V16 should work well for you.

Click to expand...

He is running the largest KL Racing camshaft, the S/T5. I really, really want it to measured by Shoestring and Robert has one he could send'm... But, it's likely freezing out there and I don't know if he wants to do camshaft measuring right now. Regardless, it should be making more than 160hp, I expect!

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