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Teach me V8's...

nordmaschine

nordmaschine

forced instruction
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Location
The Balkans, BiH
The BMW M50 in my 960 is probably going to go away to another project car.

I want something bigger for it now. V12 is too heavy, too cramped and otherwise impractical, so I'd have to go with proven concept - V8. Eventually going for twin turbos.

From what I've seen around here, SBC and SBF are the way to go.

Problem is, where I live, we haven't ever had many V8's, and nowdays, they're even fewer and far between in the junkyards.

As Explorers go, all I've managed to find are V6's, so that's a no-go.

SBC... From what I've learned through teh internets, there is this "old" SBC, and then there are LT/LS motors... LS being lighter and more performance oriented than LT's, but LT's are good to, right? However, I've seen one SBC in a JY near me, owner says it's a 350, IIRC, and appears to be early-to-mid 80's. That's not an LT, is it? What's the difference between those old ones and LT/LS ones?
How PSI can they? lol

Seriously, I'm not going for something too wild, and I could get gaskets/pistons/cam/this-and-that's shipped over from US/Germany/Somewhere so that's not a problem, but I'd be stuck with block/heads/crank of whatever I can get a hold of...

So, how stout SBC is?

Other than those, there are some Rover 3.5 V8's floating around and I guess the most abundant are 80's-90's Jeep (Grand) Cherokee V8's...4.something-5.7's. Those are AMC, right? Are they any good?

If that should fail, I could always go with BMW again, M60B40...

Teach me some V8's, TB!
 
linuxman51 said:
em er pushrods gotdawng got dat tork mmmboyyeeeee

nordmaschine said:
That's a concern.
Eeer....?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Translation:

"When one is going to the effort to install an 8-cylinder, vee-configuration engine in a chassis that was never it's native home, one should consider the possibility that a more attractive option than a legacy "three-fifty" or "three-oh-five" 90 degree V8 engine.

Today, a very popular option for a powerplant retrofit is the General Motors "LS" family of engines. In fact, I have one in my 940 wagon!

When updating to a more modern, capable V8 engine, one would be smart to retrofit a more capable engine management system at the same time. Mega- or Microsquirt is a prime candidate. In general, unless you are running in a particular carbureted racing class, an electronic fuel injection and ignition proves itself far superior to a carb."

81e5ea81b4a0e8df02471a58d099e76e.jpg
 
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Sorry, I couldn't help it. I know I've got one, but I read that every time someone mentions v8 swap--its built in or something.


anyway, if you're going chevy, you could go LT, but I wouldn't. An 80's 350 isn't going to be an lt1, that's just... a chevy 350. old, heavy, fairly anemic for the displacement.
LT's are mid-ish 90's to late-ish 90's chevy engines, LS's start around 99 and go up from there (maybe as early as 98 for some, but for searching's sake). If you're fixated on a 350 cubic inch engine, you're looking for a 5.7L. there's also 5.3's in the family(smaller bore than 5.7), 4.8's (a little more rev-happy with the proper cam and springs), and some others more commonly found in newer cars. Depending on vehicle availablility you probably want to be searching in delivery vans and chevy/gm pickup trucks/suburbans/yukons/etc.. that's where we find most of the donors stateside. LT1's had some issues with the distributor/ignition pickup setup, aside from that they're alright I reckon depending on goals. I don't know much about them or older SBC's aside that most tend to favor the low end of the hp spectrum regardless of what the magazines all say.

don't know much about the jeep v8's other than it doesn't seem like many people mess with them, couldn't tell you why though.
 
Gen I SBC's (like the one in my 240) are certainly heavy. But, I doubt it's heavier than an M60.
You lose 50lbs with (go aftermarket...) Aluminum heads, and a great budget (cast iron) option is 906 or 062 casting Vortec heads. All of which are available mail-order. An 80's 350 might be a late smog-era 350; low compression, crap flowing 882 casting heads, weak cast crank (and rod bolts).

But, a 300-340hp 350 is so easy to build with crap parts, it's why it's still being done today.
A potent 383 setup (no point in going with stock stroke if going for a rebuild anyway) is really popular right now, and can be built in a dirty, ill-equipped garage by Bubba in a week with all mail-order parts for around $2,000. (This is in the U.S. so shipping/tax isn't going to be the same)
Heck...you could order a crate motor and see if Summit/Jegs/GMPP ships to your country. That'd be the simplest approach.

But, the only reason to go Gen I SBC or Gen 2 (LT1/LT4) is price and availability...which is far more abundant in the 'states.
My engine (complete carb to pan, + accessories) cost me $100 and the Camaro T5 behind it was $80.
Then the mounting setup was the old-school Hurst-style front motor plate that cost $70. (You can use this mount with either Gen I or LTx engines only).
The only reason I used the SBC was the cheap entry cost and the spare parts (cam, valve springs, gasket kit, intake, carb(s), distributor) I already had in the garage.

The SBC has lots of potential, and no matter how you look at it, it's hard to do a simpler swap for the power you get (with like 5 wires to run it) for less than a Gen I SBC.

But, after spending nearly 2 years trying to get everything together (full-time student/working) I really wish I'd saved my money (and time) and gone with an LSx mounting kit on here, and spent the time sourcing the flywheel and TOB to use with my T5.

I already want to go with boost, and Fuel Injection (especially if trying to go emissions legal) is really hard to come by inexpensively for a Gen I. Because TPI just isn't worth the effort or cost now-a-days.
As much as I love carbs to death, I'm just too stupid and impatient to attempt to learn/mess with a blow-through carb setup...

An LT1 makes a great street engine with a good cam/springs and some porting on the heads (They're aluminum, reverse flow-cooling, Vortec castings with smaller combustion chambers, and no, they will not work on a Gen I without welding) and uses SBC transmissions, flywheels, crank/rods, Aftermarket cams, headers, and mounting method. But, you get a good fuel injection intake stock which makes life far easier since you want boost. It's the best SBC you can buy that is a production longblock. All the hard stuff was done for you.

Basically, if you want to just take advantage of all the Gen I SBC stuff (except heads), do some basic bolt ons (cam swap!) and drive it until you want to boost it. Go LT1, the Opti-spark is a good system but, replace the water-pump with a quality replacement and good gaskets! Plus there's a Megasquirt Plug-n-Play for the LT1 for easy boosting.

And after all that, I still say, you'll be better off starting with an LSx, but, if you can find a complete LT1 w/ ECU and wiring it is a very viable option.

Welp hope some of that garbled mess made sense.

Also, the Mopar 318/360 Magnum are cool engines, just not much aftermarket support and what there is expensive. (Google: Summit M1 intake manifold) That and not many inexpensive overdrive (manual or auto) transmissions available. No idea about issues with boost though, I've seen a few videos of them making some great power boosted, but, no idea if they were built or stock bottom-ends.
 
Dont worry about doing what everyone in america WANTS to do, do what's available to you. Im sure yall have cool motors in junkyards we dont have in america that would be cool/out of the box/ make decent power blah blah.

That said its real easy and cheap to build sbc power IN AMERICA but further away its not going to be too cheap or easy to come across parts (you cant get vortec heads in your yards which are an easy cheap upgrade here) and contrary to popular belief they arent that heavy, much lighter than a 2jz people like so much.


What are you wanting out of your car?
 
ncd2294 said:
Also, the Mopar 318/360 Magnum are cool engines, just not much aftermarket support and what there is expensive. (Google: Summit M1 intake manifold) That and not many inexpensive overdrive (manual or auto) transmissions available. No idea about issues with boost though, I've seen a few videos of them making some great power boosted, but, no idea if they were built or stock bottom-ends.
Click to expand...

We raced one of those off road for a few years. They are tough, and the high nickle blocks we used were good at taking high temps. Often badmouthed by people that actually have no real experience with them. Parts are a bit more.

We won a CORR championship with one. The only Dodge in a 30 truck field full of factory backed Fords and Chevy's.

That being said,, if you want to go turbo, an LS is an easy path, paved by thousand of others. Mopar, not as much.
 
PropaV8, thanks but as you might have read in the first post, much of the stuff you mention there isn't really available here.

Lunuxman, Ncd, Canadan...thanks. That was really helpful. MEII, thanks. Seems like Magnums are stout off boost, but from what I've gathered from a quick google, seems like blocks tend to fall apart around 500hp mark. 500 is a good number however, but when going through all the trouble of another swap, I'd rather have some headroom... Teh internets say that LT's reach 1000hp ballpark on stock internals and such.

My problem with teh webz is that most people just go around shooting blind some links to some bolt on kits, "turbo tunes" and such... Really not much hands on experience out there.

When going turbo, I'd be comfortable building my own manifolds, piping, ant the like. As electronics go, carbs are really out of thr question. I wouldn't mind either building an entire harness or adapter harness if starting out with an efi motor (which I'd prefeer to fiddling with inventing sensor placement, fabricating rails, etc...) and ecu would be VEMS. Best availability and support heere, seems like best bang for the buck, in league with MS3x with inbbuild WB...


Fun fact: M60B40, 4.0 32v is right at 175kg. What bothers me there is finding a manual "getriebe" for it... Merc M117 and M119 are also an option, every 10th car here is NOT VW, Audi, BMW or a Merc...


Jag Vee's anyone?
 
nordmaschine said:
PropaV8, thanks but as you might have read in the first post, much of the stuff you mention there isn't really available here.

Lunuxman, Ncd, Canadan...thanks. That was really helpful. MEII, thanks. Seems like Magnums are stout off boost, but from what I've gathered from a quick google, seems like blocks tend to fall apart around 500hp mark. 500 is a good number however, but when going through all the trouble of another swap, I'd rather have some headroom... Teh internets say that LT's reach 1000hp ballpark on stock internals and such.

My problem with teh webz is that most people just go around shooting blind some links to some bolt on kits, "turbo tunes" and such... Really not much hands on experience out there.

When going turbo, I'd be comfortable building my own manifolds, piping, ant the like. As electronics go, carbs are really out of thr question. I wouldn't mind either building an entire harness or adapter harness if starting out with an efi motor (which I'd prefeer to fiddling with inventing sensor placement, fabricating rails, etc...) and ecu would be VEMS. Best availability and support heere, seems like best bang for the buck, in league with MS3x with inbbuild WB...


Fun fact: M60B40, 4.0 32v is right at 175kg. What bothers me there is finding a manual "getriebe" for it... Merc M117 and M119 are also an option, every 10th car here is NOT VW, Audi, BMW or a Merc...


Jag Vee's anyone?
Click to expand...


No. Only English perverts can work on those. Then they lock them up in rubber room. No.
 
Not exactly. What you young'uns call an LT1 first appeared in the early 90s. The LT1 actually first appeared in 1970. The 1970 Camaro Z28 and Corvette were both available with the 370 HP LT1 350. I have one of those engines sitting in my shop. I used to have it in my 1955 Willy's Wagon and then in my 63 Impala SS. If someone wanted to do a carbed SBC, that would be a great engine to use.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1008-1970-gm-350-small-block-engine/

linuxman51 said:
Sorry, I couldn't help it. I know I've got one, but I read that every time someone mentions v8 swap--its built in or something.


anyway, if you're going chevy, you could go LT, but I wouldn't. An 80's 350 isn't going to be an lt1, that's just... a chevy 350. old, heavy, fairly anemic for the displacement.
LT's are mid-ish 90's to late-ish 90's chevy engines, LS's start around 99 and go up from there (maybe as early as 98 for some, but for searching's sake). If you're fixated on a 350 cubic inch engine, you're looking for a 5.7L. there's also 5.3's in the family(smaller bore than 5.7), 4.8's (a little more rev-happy with the proper cam and springs), and some others more commonly found in newer cars. Depending on vehicle availablility you probably want to be searching in delivery vans and chevy/gm pickup trucks/suburbans/yukons/etc.. that's where we find most of the donors stateside. LT1's had some issues with the distributor/ignition pickup setup, aside from that they're alright I reckon depending on goals. I don't know much about them or older SBC's aside that most tend to favor the low end of the hp spectrum regardless of what the magazines all say.

don't know much about the jeep v8's other than it doesn't seem like many people mess with them, couldn't tell you why though.
Click to expand...
 
2manyturbos said:
Not exactly. What you young'uns call an LT1 first appeared in the early 90s. The LT1 actually first appeared in 1970. The 1970 Camaro Z28 and Corvette were both available with the 370 HP LT1 350. I have one of those engines sitting in my shop. I used to have it in my 1955 Willy's Wagon and then in my 63 Impala SS. If someone wanted to do a carbed SBC, that would be a great engine to use.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1008-1970-gm-350-small-block-engine/
Click to expand...

Those old LT1 engines can be built from scratch, just like a wanna-be DZ.
You're lucky to have an original sitting around. They're valuable.

The cop car LT1 is completely different, and a dime a dozen....but you knew that.
 
if you want to split hairs, lt1s are back again now. gm recycled the designation

2manyturbos said:
Not exactly. What you young'uns call an LT1 first appeared in the early 90s. The LT1 actually first appeared in 1970. The 1970 Camaro Z28 and Corvette were both available with the 370 HP LT1 350. I have one of those engines sitting in my shop. I used to have it in my 1955 Willy's Wagon and then in my 63 Impala SS. If someone wanted to do a carbed SBC, that would be a great engine to use.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1008-1970-gm-350-small-block-engine/
Click to expand...
 
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