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Old 09-30-2017, 11:45 AM   #26
brian smith
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Look Guv, the statement referred to what is the norm around here for the 17 years I have been reading people's big ideas...If you take the big giant chip off your shoulder, you would be able to see that....

Couple notes: VOC cars can only use stock components..freely mix-n-match, but stock.. power's typically in the 150 hp range..except on-line, then it's more.

You want to spend thousands just to make it big, knock yourself out.

The moment I saw you "intend to retain K-Jet"...I said "Whoooops! There we go..."
It seems not uncommon that someone online asks for advice/recommendations for their unusual engine solution, but really just wants moral support and high fives.
First you get a description of an idea they consider novel, and then under scrutiny, the idea is defended without a relevant example cited as "proven in motorsport."

"Motorsport" has become more of a way to express individuality than a discipline or a learned habit.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:59 AM   #27
John V, outside agitator
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Originally Posted by brian smith View Post
It seems not uncommon that someone online asks for advice/recommendations for their unusual engine solution, but really just wants moral support and high fives.
First you get a description of an idea they consider novel, and then under scrutiny, the idea is defended without a relevant example cited as "proven in motorsport."

"Motorsport" has become more of a way to express individuality than a discipline or a learned habit.
Well that is what I was wondering... in this example we didnät even begin to examine things, the guy goes off ranting about arrogance when Iäm referring to others..

Now i DO know what British Auto-grass is, but for the life of me I cannot understand why a person would think it a good balance between cost and performance to spend literally pick up loads of money to stroke the fawk out of a motor (unless the person is laboring under some misconception that there is some relationship between stroke and torque), and yet turn around and intentionally strangle the potential by insisting on 8v and worse of all, K-jet...
That shows its not discussion the guy is after, but what you referred to "high fives" or what I call stroking his crank..."Oh baby you are soooooooooo special such a big crank! (slorp-slorp-slorp!!!) Ooooh 3 point 2 loter and oh baby K-jet (splat)...

Well maybe he's off to Basefook where the whole thing is ALL about, "Hey Lookie! Lookie my burger i just ate!..Loooking a broken gasket, isn't my broken gasket interesting-est broken thermostat gasket EVAR?"
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:25 PM   #28
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It isn't a good balance of cost and performance at all and that was never the point.

I am limited to the 8v head due to the class restrictions.

When I said that it has been proven in motorsport I was referring to the fact that stroking the B230 beyond 86mm has worked well for people in rallycross/autograss etc. and to get the performance figures I want I will need to stroke beyond 86mm. I think this is what you took issue with originally...stroking beyond 86mm.

Regarding the CIS system; I want to try this purely just to see if it will work. I understand that an EFI or twin carbs may work better but since I can't see any evidence that anyone has tried tuning the CIS on an N/A B230 successful or otherwise, I am willing to try it. If it works then maybe someone else will find it useful to know if it can be done.

Last edited by interrorbang; 09-30-2017 at 01:31 PM.. Reason: punctuation
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:14 PM   #29
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It isn't a good balance of cost and performance at all and that was never the point.

I am limited to the 8v head due to the class restrictions.

When I said that it has been proven in motorsport I was referring to the fact that stroking the B230 beyond 86mm has worked well for people in rallycross/autograss etc. and to get the performance figures I want I will need to stroke beyond 86mm. I think this is what you took issue with originally...stroking beyond 86mm.

Regarding the CIS system; I want to try this purely just to see if it will work. I understand that an EFI or twin carbs may work better but since I can't see any evidence that anyone has tried tuning the CIS on an N/A B230 successful or otherwise, I am willing to try it. If it works then maybe someone else will find it useful to know if it can be done.
Hundreds of people tried to make K-jet work for years: those poor fawkers who had either group N or Group A cars that came with K-Jet....including VW Golves, Audi 4000 n.a. and turbo cars, Volvo turbos, Saab turbos...in n.a the volume of the intake runners was always THE major limitation..8v VWs, Volvos, and Saab all being strangled at approx 175 hp.
GpN and GpA mandated retention of OEM intake manifold and throttle body, but directly from the best guys doing tuning in those days, it was the runners that was the limitation..

(If you are going to have useful port velocity at "normal" Svensson driving conditions--that is very light throttle and max rpm EVER somewhere around 2600 for Volvo drivers, 3600 for saab drivers, then you will make the runners so you get the port velocity you want.. Try and cram 3 times the volume of air thru the same hole and it will stack up)

Nobody was ever happy with modding K-jet...The Swedes at the time were nice enough to send me sketches on modding specific airflow heads to make the Saab 8v things "work" but I didn't have the machining capability then...and amusingly 20 years later I got a request from one of the guys asking if i still had the old sketch because those cars were legal for Classic class, and they'd lost their notes...One guy said "We don't want to dwell on unpleasant memories"

EVERYBODY hated the fact some cars like GolfII were originally homologated with K-jet and even once the 5 year rule kicked in and the cars were no longer legal for group A, the idiots at SBF decided that even in "National" Class, (later "Grupp H") Golves had to be built to strict GpA spec...only in 1994 did sense finaly prevail and Golves could ditch the K-jet junk and intake and use normal carb or ITB and headers on the exhaust side...
the press at the time said "This will breath new life into those Golves by being competitive again"...And they still are--I believe Gp H title this year was won by a Golf guy just last week.

In short, it IS proven--30 years ago---that its a pointless annoying, frustrating exercise and never works well...and I assure you that you don't have the resources that those guys had...
I imagine if you asked ANYBODY who knows anything about making power in Sweden, they MIGHT be polite since you're doubtless speaking English with them...
I speak with them like anybody else, my Swedsih was learned in motorsport, that's why I lived there for 7-8 years..even back then it was from their side "WHY!!!??? Fawk that junk! ARE YOU INSANE?"
I explained we had introduced "Group A" as a class here..
Them "SH1T..screw that, do some other class..Its endless frustration..and you'll NEVER get the fuel slope correct..If OK on top it'll be pig-rich on midrange and sh!t on bottom"
They were right.

As for power goals..Engines make torque and for a given fuel by and large engine torque is pretty much engine volume x compression.

But the engine isn't the only place that torque is made....gearbox and final drive makes an awful lot of the toque that gets to the wheel...and moves the car..What's your plans there?
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:16 PM   #30
Mogly
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vote,
98mm stroke, CIS!!!
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:46 PM   #31
klr142
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Erland talks a little about making some power with CIS in here with a thread on another forum linked as well.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=195609
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Old 02-16-2018, 03:04 PM   #32
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Upgrade the CIS to CIS-E.
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:11 PM   #33
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Any update?
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:07 PM   #34
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Any update?



He hasn't logged on in 2 years so...
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