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Old 05-16-2019, 06:17 PM   #576
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The new BMW i6's make peak torque at 1600rpm. I haven't driven one, and it's hard for me to imagine how a turbo motor would behave like that!
The white block has been doing this since 2001
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:27 PM   #577
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The white block has been doing this since 2001
Get real, nobody's home above 5000 in one of those.
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:33 AM   #578
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Weather held out on Friday so I snuck out of work a little early headed home, grabbed the trailer and the old **** box and headed to PIR for Track Night in America.

Great group of cars, interesting group of drivers.





I didnt take too many pics was busy driving and doing some tuning on suspension bits.

First session out, much much better turn in with the delrin bushings, front control arms still have a little wiggle in them, assuming its the bubble gum rear bushings still in there. Does it on hard braking entering a corner, probably need to do more braking before the corner

Had a little shimmy on the rear of the car on corner exits in the first session but the car was doing well, full 20 minute session, no steering issues, got to 217 (Still on the stock 190 degree stat).

Pitted the car, adjusted the rears 4 clicks softer, adjusted the fronts 4 clicks stiffer. checked tire press, 30 front 27 rear. Good notes.

Rear diff needs a hose on the vent tube, losing a little oil out of that but not enough to stop from running again.

Session 2, much better, less rear wheel hop on corner exits, able to drive the car much harder, notice a little understeer mid corner, car rotates really welll, turn in is excellent.

Had a hell of a time, passed everything in our session except an RS3 that I had an awesome time running with, he was a better driver than I was so once he got around me I hung with him and followed his lead.

There was a guy out there in a McLaren that was a horrible driver, didnt watch his mirrors, wouldnt let anyone around him and though because he had the fastest car out there that he was the fastest driver....he was not, by a long stretch. Passing only on a point by and I wasnt going to break the rules but we both had him covered by a long shot. I was starting to get a little angry, realized it was just for fun and tuning and pull off track a few minutes before the end of the session, a solid 18 minutes out.

Car is getting better, getting used to it. Power and grip in corner exits is awesome, its much faster than I am used to in the F100.

Needs a little softer rear springs, I have 450's in now, ordered some 400's and 350's to try out next week.

I still believe it needs more front bar, I have a 25 on it now, going to go up to a 28mm and see how it does, could make the understeer worse.

I need more front camber.....more on that later.

Rear Diff Breather needs addressed as well as a 160 degree thermostat.

Was stoked to have Robert drop by with his father in law, we had a great evening, car drove into the trailer. Good Day!!!

Saturday was IPD's big annual car show and garage sale, car was pretty well received there and I took home a best of show trophy. Thanks to IPD for putting on this event, its a great time for all of us Volvo Folks was good to see some old friends and make some new ones as well.



I took half the day off today and cleaned up the shop, ordered a bunch of parts and then got too it.

Havent been looking forward to this but its got to be done.

These are Kaplhenke adjustable caster/camber plates with his strut bar as well. There are no instructions included with the kit so for anyone that needs to do this in the future here is what I did to get the camber gains but still keep the structure in the tops.



I then traced out the inner shape of the strut tower opening on the top of the strut tower so I had an exact location of where I needed to cut.

Taped up and protected.



You can see the pencil line



Drilled the corners so I had a nice radius and gave myself a big hole to start with the airsaw.



Rough cut.



I cleaned up the hole with a 1.5" round sanding disc on a die grinder and several different files. I then touched up all of the bare surfaces with color matched paint. Its not perfect but 90% of it is hidden away,





I think it actually looks better now than before so I call that success!!





I am not quite sure how much camber I gained, but I gained a bunch of tire clearance, and the strut top moved in a good .75" I still have a little more to gain.

Will get it all buttoned up tomorrow before the rest of the parts show up, hope to have it all together before next Fridays TNIA in Seattle.

This write up came out today, pretty stoked to see this posted up from our shoot a few weeks ago.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/perf...swapped-volvo/

All in all pretty awesome weekend and last few weeks, fun to see people dig the car.

Thanks for all the help and support over the past year, its been fun as hell!!!

Sean
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:17 AM   #579
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Nice work Sean -- and the article/shoot really seals the deal!

I'd think with a bigger front bar AND softer rear springs, you're gonna see a good bit more push in the front. But more negative camber should help with that -- so you'll see where that all ends up. BTW, in addition to cutting the top of the strut tower for clearance, I opened up the strut tower brace a bit as well to make access to the 4 bolts on top much easier. Makes changing settings a good bit easier.

Edit - oh, if you're seeing 217F on a 190F t'stat, how is a 160F t'stat gonna help? If the system won't reject enough heat keep it closer to the 190F t'stat temp, how is it going to reject the additional heat needed to get it down closer to 160F? It'll buy you a bit of time when you first start lapping, but shortly after either t'stat is gonna be wide open. I'd say you need more airflow across the rad or more rad if you want running temps closer to the t'stat temp. Fatter tune may help a bit too...

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Old 05-20-2019, 10:32 AM   #580
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Nice work Sean -- and the article/shoot really seals the deal!

I'd think with a bigger front bar AND softer rear springs, you're gonna see a good bit more push in the front. But more negative camber should help with that -- so you'll see where that all ends up. BTW, in addition to cutting the top of the strut tower for clearance, I opened up the strut tower brace a bit as well to make access to the 4 bolts on top much easier. Makes changing settings a good bit easier.

Edit - oh, if you're seeing 217F on a 190F t'stat, how is a 160F t'stat gonna help? If the system won't reject enough heat keep it closer to the 190F t'stat temp, how is it going to reject the additional heat needed to get it down closer to 160F? It'll buy you a bit of time when you first start lapping, but shortly after either t'stat is gonna be wide open. I'd say you need more airflow across the rad or more rad if you want running temps closer to the t'stat temp. Fatter tune may help a bit too...
I think I am going to try the softer rear springs first, then the front bar, but have them all with me at the next track day in case I want to make more changes. I also needed a little more tire pressure up front as I could feel the tires rolling over more than they should be. The extra camber should be a huge help though.

I hear ya on opening up the strut tower bar, like I have said before sometimes its a balance of aesthetics and performance for me. I still cannot believe that there are no instructions provided with any of Kaplhenke's parts as well as not a single one linked off of his website, Moreover, why doesn't the strut tower bar opening match the pattern on the top of the adjustable upper strut mount. I understand that not everyone will run them, but maybe have it as an option? I cut enough, not to mention I don't really want to send it off to have it re powdercoated.

On the engine temps, I understand thermal dynamics pretty well but this one has me a little bit confused. Its not load or speed related.

If I sit in stop and go traffic it will get up to about 211, this is in super mild temperatures like 50 degrees here in Portland as well as 95 degree weather in Vegas.

It will come down to 200 ish when I get moving. When I am on the freeway cruising at say 70 or so, with very little load on the engine 1700 rpm virtually no throttle it will run about 210 or so More accelerator or shift gears and it will drop.

Makes me think that the stat is more likely an issue than airflow. I do wonder if I am going to have to do some hood louvers to get some airflow through the engine bay. When I pop the hood though, its not really hot in there like I would think it would be.

Either way, its a next step, it either helps or it doesnt, but its the best path forward that I can think of.

Sean
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Old 05-20-2019, 01:47 PM   #581
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Sean,

Just a heads up. The second set of bolt holes on the strut mounts allows you to deshroud the bolt that is hidden by the strut tower.

Looking good!!!
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Old 05-20-2019, 01:58 PM   #582
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I hear ya on opening up the strut tower bar, like I have said before sometimes its a balance of aesthetics and performance for me. I still cannot believe that there are no instructions provided with any of Kaplhenke's parts as well as not a single one linked off of his website, Moreover, why doesn't the strut tower bar opening match the pattern on the top of the adjustable upper strut mount. I understand that not everyone will run them, but maybe have it as an option? I cut enough, not to mention I don't really want to send it off to have it re powdercoated.
The opening was designed and manufactured the way it was to provide the most versatility to the most amount of people. There is a very small number of people using this strut brace with these strut mounts compared to people using this brace with stock mounts or our offset mounts, there is an even smaller amount of those people who will be cutting their strut towers to install these. from an aesthetic point of view, adding a pattern to plate that will get used by 2% of the end users doesn't make sense. I prefer the cleaner aesthetic as the brace ships. Also not everyone installs the strut mounts in the same orientation so that adds even more complexity trying to integrate everything together.



On cars that get abused with stock strut mounts, the strut tower often does not stay flat so leaving the most metal surrounding the opening is beneficial for that reasons
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:00 PM   #583
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@hackster, What radiator is in the car? I'm having the same exact cooling issues with mine. I will be following this. (BTW, I'm running Lingenfelter 165 Stat)
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:04 PM   #584
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I’d align with more neg camber first, then rear springs, then front bar.

No question Sean - if operating temps are more than about 10F higher than your inlet-located t'stat temp, then t’stat is not controlling temp. As mentioned before, you’re already not rejecting enough heat to keep at 200F under a number of conditions. You’d have to reject even MORE heat to get it down to 170F....you see the issue? Do you have the splash shield or some other device to create an are of low pressure below/behind the rad/engine? If not, that will assist with airflow across the rad at speed. What are your oil temps doing?

FWIW, mine sits right at 195-197F (187F inlet t’stat) regardless of ambient (even 95-100F) if I’m moving fast enough to keep the fans off. With fans on it controls right at the set point - 202F. All numers confirmed by gauge and by ecu output. Oil temps with cooler fan on stay between 210F-235F. Running Howe Racing alum 24x16 core with side tanks and 2 one inch rows. Also done a lot of work sealing up front end so all air entering grille and air dam opening (below bumper) is forced across condenser and rad - it can’t go anywhere else. And I run the so-called splash shield as it assists with airflow across the rad at speed. Last - I mounted the oil cooler low and ducted it so that hot air off the oil cooler goes under the car - not back into the cooling system. Means the heat rejected from the oil is truly incremental. Nothing wrong with oil cooler in front of rad (or a coolant to oil exchanger) provided the radiator was sized with the extra btu’s from the oil in mind.

160 t’stat will help for short autocross runs and 1/4 mile where you’re cooling between runs. But it’s not gonna change much of anything under those conditions you described - if you’re showing 210F-217F, your 190F t’stat is already wide open - just like the 160F will be.

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Old 05-20-2019, 04:23 PM   #585
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Im on a stock 190ļ NA and the highest I've seen is 206 w/ heat index of 110 outside up a hill. Something aint right but 216ļ isn't all that bad. The stock trucks and SUV's run 215ļ factory running temp.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:26 PM   #586
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Iíd align with more neg camber first, then rear springs, then front bar.

No question Sean - if operating temps are more than about 10F higher than your inlet-located t'stat temp, then tístat is not controlling temp. As mentioned before, youíre already not rejecting enough heat to keep at 200F under a number of conditions. Youíd have to reject even MORE heat to get it down to 170F....you see the issue? Do you have the splash shield or some other device to create an are of low pressure below/behind the rad/engine? If not, that will assist with airflow across the rad at speed. What are your oil temps doing?

FWIW, mine sits right at 195-197F (187F inlet tístat) regardless of ambient (even 95-100F) if Iím moving fast enough to keep the fans off. With fans on it controls right at the set point - 202F. All numers confirmed by gauge and by ecu output. Oil temps with cooler fan on stay between 210F-235F. Running Howe Racing alum 24x16 core with side tanks and 2 one inch rows. Also done a lot of work sealing up front end so all air entering grille and air dam opening (below bumper) is forced across condenser and rad - it canít go anywhere else. And I run the so-called splash shield as it assists with airflow across the rad at speed. Last - I mounted the oil cooler low and ducted it so that hot air off the oil cooler goes under the car - not back into the cooling system. Means the heat rejected from the oil is truly incremental. Nothing wrong with oil cooler in front of rad (or a coolant to oil exchanger) provided the radiator was sized with the extra btuís from the oil in mind.

160 tístat will help for short autocross runs and 1/4 mile where youíre cooling between runs. But itís not gonna change much of anything under those conditions you described - if youíre showing 210F-217F, your 190F tístat is already wide open - just like the 160F will be.
Im really close to how your temps sit on my car.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:51 PM   #587
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Absolutely ^^^ 215-220F won't hurt a thing on the OEM stuff - in fact many of the factory fan settings allow them to run in the 230F-240F range frequently. Suspect with boost and mild ambients (50F's?) Sean is wondering what might occur as ambients increase during the summer. Also, it would be nice to know that you have plenty of heat rejection capability for track use -- a measure of that is the temps reflecting that the t'stat is controlling...and under the circumstances described above, that's not happening.

'Spose it's possible that the t'stat is slowly failing - not opening all the way, although I haven't had that happen to me. In my experience, t'stats worked until they failed to open and then immediate overheating was the symptom. Have had one (daughter's Toy Corolla) fail OPEN - car wouldn't come close to heating up in the winter time. Piece of debris had lodged itself between the seat and the 'valve' which kept the t'stat cracked open all the time. Too cool in the winter for it to heat up enough to open all the way and release the debris - which might have caused other problems. I went ahead and replaced it.

Sean's comments about increasing rpm or throttle dropping the temp under cruise are interesting -- can't make that fit with all this. Challenges with t'stats over the years have me to where even brand new ones in the box I test on the cooktop with a thermometer before I put them in the car. The one that came new in my motor began to open at 186F and was fully open when I was reading 188F-189F. I recall it was stamped 187F.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:39 PM   #588
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Sean's comments about increasing rpm or throttle dropping the temp under cruise are interesting -- can't make that fit with all this. Challenges with t'stats over the years have me to where even brand new ones in the box I test on the cooktop with a thermometer before I put them in the car. The one that came new in my motor began to open at 186F and was fully open when I was reading 188F-189F. I recall it was stamped 187F.
Mine is doing this exact thing as well, I've also been curious if by swapping to a small SFI crank pulley caused this for me. My car will cool to 170-175 cruising, and be at 190-205 under very light load conditions. I've attributed this to airflow through the RAD, but I've been wondering if the water pump even gets into its pumping efficiency range at idle and low RPM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:39 PM   #589
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LS engines run hot *-210*+ is normal. They handle it well, and the aluminum blocks cool even better. You need to have a bypass in the heater circuit. When the Volvo heater control is off, there is no flow in the circuit, which causes the pump to pull a vacuum and cavitate.
I put a bypass from LOJ in my heater circuit and it allows flow back to the pump when the heater valve is closed. My temps dropped 10-15 *
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:18 PM   #590
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I don't have any doubt that you guys are correct.

However. I came home from work and finished the struts. Started the old **** box up to see exactly what temps I have.

Car heats up quick, heater valve fully open. Was at operating temp in less than 10 mins.

Car gets to 190 and thermostat opens.

Car ran at 190 for a few, then 194 then 196 and settled back to 194.

This is with the hood open, hood closed same thing no change.

Now where it gets interesting.

Plenty of cool water at the radiator.

Water coming from engine measure with IR on the aluminum tank never got above 130.

Supply water from Radiator to the engine was cool to the touch as was the radiator end tank.

Fan 1 turns on at 170, fan 2 at 185.

This appears to be telling me that I have a thermostat that's not quite opening or my cooling system is working really well and the stat isn't opening very far.

It's not heat soaked, the radiator is able to reject tons of heat.

I am going to try the other stat and see what it does.

Sean
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:44 PM   #591
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Put 'em in a pan on the cook top with a thermometer Sean -- check and see what you've got before you put it in -- they're bad right out of the box from time to time....
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:41 PM   #592
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LS engines run hot *-210*+ is normal. They handle it well, and the aluminum blocks cool even better. You need to have a bypass in the heater circuit. When the Volvo heater control is off, there is no flow in the circuit, which causes the pump to pull a vacuum and cavitate.
I put a bypass from LOJ in my heater circuit and it allows flow back to the pump when the heater valve is closed. My temps dropped 10-15 *
I dont have a bypass in mine and I have no problems.... eh?
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:55 AM   #593
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Fan trigger temps are too low.

There should be a temp window between the thermostat open temp and the fan shut off temp for the radiator to do it's job. Ideally, most of the heat transfer should be coming from that window (when the radiator is at full flow), and the goal is to avoid having the fans bring the temps below stat temp. It's unnecessary temp cycling, and fan cycling.

For LS's with the standard 185 deg Tstat the first fan should come on around 195 and off at 190(this prevents fan cycling), and second on at 200, off at 190.

This temp window allows 5 degrees for the radiator to do it's job before the fan(s) have to come on and assist the heat transfer.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:58 AM   #594
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Problem solved, 2 google clicks DONE.

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Old 05-21-2019, 06:11 AM   #595
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Fan trigger temps are too low.

There should be a temp window between the thermostat open temp and the fan shut off temp for the radiator to do it's job. Ideally, most of the heat transfer should be coming from that window (when the radiator is at full flow), and the goal is to avoid having the fans bring the temps below stat temp. It's unnecessary temp cycling, and fan cycling.

For LS's with the standard 185 deg Tstat the first fan should come on around 195 and off at 190(this prevents fan cycling), and second on at 200, off at 190.

This temp window allows 5 degrees for the radiator to do it's job before the fan(s) have to come on and assist the heat transfer.
None of this should be in play at all for the temp issues he's seeing under cruise or at the track when there should be plenty of airflow to across the rad to have the t'stat alone controlling temps with the fans completely off. Besides that, with the stock (185F, 187F, 190F ?) t'stat on the inlet, you're gonna see op temps in the 194F-200F range at the head. It's that operating temp, not the t'stat temp, that you need the 5F degree cushion for fans on. If the t'stat were on the outlet, then your temp ranges would work just fine.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:04 AM   #596
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Where are all you people when I have a spring rate question or need some suspension know how


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Fan trigger temps are too low.

There should be a temp window between the thermostat open temp and the fan shut off temp for the radiator to do it's job. Ideally, most of the heat transfer should be coming from that window (when the radiator is at full flow), and the goal is to avoid having the fans bring the temps below stat temp. It's unnecessary temp cycling, and fan cycling.

For LS's with the standard 185 deg Tstat the first fan should come on around 195 and off at 190(this prevents fan cycling), and second on at 200, off at 190.

This temp window allows 5 degrees for the radiator to do it's job before the fan(s) have to come on and assist the heat transfer.
We set up the fan temps for the 160 degree stat, just have not gotten around to installing it yet. Should have it in hand today. Totally understand about staging the fans based off thermostat temp.

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Problem solved, 2 google clicks DONE.

Haha, reposting cause I love that pic.

I got the strut tower back installed on the car, got things bolted in and with my digital angle finder seems that all that work and I still only have 2.3 degrees of negative camber on the fronts. Clearly my initial measurement of 1.8 was incorrect since I have moved the strut in .75" or so.

Hope to get it in for a proper alignment this week if I can.

Running out of time to get all this **** done before the weekend though. Gotta swap rear springs, install t stat, new intake elbow (reinforced) and get an alignment.

Parts should show up later today.

Sean
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:39 AM   #597
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Well - since you asked for spring/suspension 'guidance' -- rule number one when I was racing was 'only change one thing at a time'. I'd do the alignment and see how it works before swapping the springs. Changing multiple things at a time and it's impossible to know what's impacting what.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:58 AM   #598
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Well, we were all wrong!!! Just goes to show you that you can play jump to conclusions all day long and still not win.

Drained the coolant out, swapped in the new 160 thermostat, start car, bleed steam ports, get car up to temp, stat opens right at 160, fan 1 turns on at 170, fan 2 turns on at 180, car runs right to 196 and sits there, exactly like before.

Scratches head.

Small leak at thermostat housing too now.....

Drain now hot coolant....

Remove thermostat, replace gasket with old but better gasket, reinstall, fill system, bleed steam lines, check for leaks.....no leaks.

Get up to temp, same deal stat opens at 160, fan 1 on at 170, fan 2 on at 180, car runs at 196.

I have 80 degree water in the radiator at the inlet to the water pump and thermostat.....so this leads me to believe I dont have an air issue. I have a water issue.

So I hope in the drivers seat and go from the idle of 800 RPM up to 1300, temp drops from 196 right to 180 in a matter of 30 seconds.

I do this a handful of times with the same results. Clearly its a water flow/pump issue.

Swap the rear springs out to the 400's build a gheto catch can for the rear diff and head out for a spin. 50lbs difference softened up the rear a lot, going to need to do something to gain some tire clearance to stop the rubbing but it feels much more balanced.

So take the car out for a spin, cruising around, car runs 170-175 or so, perfect, right where it should be and 30 degrees cooler than before so everything is working. Stop at a light and it creeps up to 185 or so.

Its not overheating so I am not really worried about it but its definitely not pumping enough at idle. Google says others have this problem as well.

Its not at all going to affect my track day though so drained the overflow, topped off the coolant and buttoned it up.

Still need to roll the rear fenders some more, and get an alignment before Friday.

Thought I would update everyone who put in their .02.

Sean
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:54 AM   #599
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I know next to nothing about LS engines, but is the water pump pulley stock?

I do know how to get stop the rubbing issue though. Send me the wheels and tires.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:23 PM   #600
Duder
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I had the same thought about the water pump pulley. Can you go any smaller on that?
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