90plus vs c.header vs Jpipe

Like it says, 90 plus ported manifold vs cutom header vs Na manifold with Jpipe. The engine package is ported head with oversize valves, RSI stage 3 camshaft, Klracing intake, big ebay intercooler, MS2, ID1000cc injectors, E85 fuel, Afr gauge, boost gauge. Engine has aftermarket h beam rods. turbo is open for advice. Goals- hit somewhere above 350 hp. Street driven with auto box with 3.73 gears. So, what you do?

My thoughts
90 plus would be easy and reliable. But might not flow better than the header.

Custom header with external wastegate- probably make more power and run more boost. But will be hard on plug wires and a pain to change plugs.

Jpipe with NA manifold.- The Jpipe I built has 1 3/4 pipes off the manfold and go to the turbo flange top front. I think it will be restrictive considering you have 4-1.5 runners in the manifold dumping into 2- 1.75 pipes. But maybe I am wrong. Lookiing back at header designs, exhuast gases expand when as they get cooler? But this set up is cheap, pretty easy to weld any kind of turbo flange on it. You can twin scroll it too.

I searched but never found anybody comparing all 3 options.

I went with a custom header, there was no problems with the plug wires, and you can always put heat sleeves on them if it turns out to be a problem.

I used an internal wastegate exhaust housing and mounted the wastegate on the down pipe.

Lessons learned: do not use studs, use bolts on the turbo mounting flange. And skip the header wrap, that stuff doesn't last long and then makes a huge itchy mess.

I you make tubular header it's same to make it twinscroll, because everybody knows that best all-round turbocharger is a holset's hx35 super which is a twin scroll turbo...

That's only my opinion.

I'd ditch that pos ebay intercooler and get something that will actually cool that charges air. Something from Treadstone or Garrett.

The group A cars made 350hp on the "old" exhaust manifold. A ported 90+ to match a t3/t4 50 trim would get you there.

On E85 boost that bitch to the moon.

I don't know why you're trying to reinvent the wheel (Only the Asperger side of me would say that...) with any external manifold other than just the 90+. It's an old school turbo choice, but a garrett t40e 50 trim will get you there on a plain ol 90+..... I'm sure there's more modern variants for more $$$.

IMHO the real reason for going with something other than the 90+ (log manifold, j-pipe, etc) is if you want an external wastegate to get that amazingly consistent boost control in the form of a spring.

Even a basic log manifold will do it. Back in 2004 -land people were adamant that only long tube headers could be used for turbo swaps and the stock logs were crap... until a bunch of people came along and made excellent power on log manifolds. Heck even the pre-90 turbo log manifold has a great flat spot on it to weld a pipe to an external gate.

I don't know what car you're putting this in but the real consideration for me would be packing constraints. I had an NA manifold J-pipe setup which was pretty tight clearances all around.... takes up a lot of room. Whatever you design, make it such that you can get things in and out without having to invent or fabricate special tools that work on one and only only bolt.

all hail the kludge pipe... (BTW that's an old T3 60 trim machined for a t4oe 50 trim wheel and the turbine housing for a stage 3 wheel.)


edit... if you do the j-pipe to the NA manifold... which is super easy... brace the hell out of it. It's the equivalent of holding a 100 pound weight out at arms length... it's begging to fall off. Oh... and if you do consider the j-pipe, then the turbo you want is the EVO8 16g6.... check out Sam's (deathwagon) setup from years ago.

Marvelous3 said:

I'd ditch that pos ebay intercooler and get something that will actually cool that charges air. Something from Treadstone or Garrett.

The group A cars made 350hp on the "old" exhaust manifold. A ported 90+ to match a t3/t4 50 trim would get you there.

On E85 boost that bitch to the moon.

Click to expand...

I've held a treadstone core that looked identical to a CX Racing core..

Thanks for the info. Not trying to invent the wheel. Over last few weeks of bad weather I got bored and built a J pipe. And done some swaping here and there.
So, I have all three options available. Plus, I have a Evo 8 turbo with upgraded turbine housing (9), GTX3076r (ebay but still ball bearing) and a GT2971(dont know much about but has t28 flange). The header is decent probably equal length diffently custom built. So been kinda stumped what to run. Keep in mind I have 3 volvo 240s. So extra parts wont go to waste. But focusing on the best car at this time. Here my set up.

Kl racing intake
ported head with o.s. valves
3 inch ex.
RSI stage 3 cam advanced 4
AW71 seems to be holding up
3.73 gear posi
8.8 to 1 comp. Low milage engine. With H beam rods.
ebay 3 inch intercooler (I know gonna get a KL or treads.)
E85 w/1000cc injectors.

My goal- is to beat 2008 corvette at the track. High 12 would diffently do it or maybe low 13.

You need the biggest turbo to beat that vette. Gtx3076r fits your bill...

RoadRacer4Life ran a J pipe/na mani early on in the DeathWagon thread when it was still a reblock.
IIRC he had pretty good results.

Josh at Yoshifab apparently made really good power on a ported 90+ on both a 8v and 16v.

For packaging a bigger turbo, I'd argue the J pipe/na mani is superior because it gives the opportunity for some twin scroll action and raises it way up versus the 90+ down low.

What is wrong with having the turbo down low besides packaging?

Ditching the 90+ is worth 20-30whp depending on what you replace it with.

Ideally the evo8/9 16G on a J pipe or custom manifold should be good for over 350whp without to much effort. With enough traction that is easy a low 12 sec car. This will beat a stock 2008 Corvette at the track, but from a roll on the street he will still have you on the big end but it will be close.

Having the turbo down low sucks when it comes to the oil filter and relocation kit, not a lot of space down there.

We did this on a 240 with a oil filter relocation kit.




IIRC this manifold with a evo8 16g made 360whp and 450ft lb torque on MS with a stock intake manifold.

2turbotoys said:

I went with a custom header, there was no problems with the plug wires, and you can always put heat sleeves on them if it turns out to be a problem.

I used an internal wastegate exhaust housing and mounted the wastegate on the down pipe.

Lessons learned: do not use studs, use bolts on the turbo mounting flange. And skip the header wrap, that stuff doesn't last long and then makes a huge itchy mess.

Click to expand...

Does someone make those or did you have it made? All the headers I can find online bring the turbo to the front of the engine bay and I rather keep it in it’s stock location

just buy a $600 header from sweden exhaust or cm-racing and slam a holset he351 on it...known good/cheap/reliable combo

Stiggy Pop said:

I've held a treadstone core that looked identical to a CX Racing core..

Click to expand...

CX on left (with diverter added by me) Treadstone on right (comes with diverter)



My experience was that the Treadstone allowed me to make more power. It's been at least 6 years since I ran that setup, so I don't recall the specifics. I logged temps pre & post IC, and the Treadstone outperformed the CX. This was with a PTE 6266.

As a side question - I need to weld my 90 cast turbo manifold - it has about a 1/4-3/8" crack on #3 runner into the collector.

Anyone have experience with this?

josh at yoshifab does, reach out to him. I believe he uses some kind of nickel filler rod

If I could weld up my own at only the expense of cheap steel I wound not pay 600 dollars for an exhaust header unless it brings a significant marque of improvement over what can be built. It better be beautiful too. You have all the time in the world to come up with something that works why kick half a stack. None of these ideas mentioned will hinder him from 300 hp. but why is that always the target. I get lost with this because If a person can weld one up they can virtually copy any design they see. You can damn near buy the welder at that price. In my mind it would be better to use a tig for this. For 600 bucks make the header titanium please. But why worry about this at the hp levels he wants.

At Joe it can be welded but it requires a little experience working with iron. Try a muffler shop they see this kinda thing often. The silverado was like this i just took a trip to LKQ to solve it. Are you having issues finding 90 manifolds? we have a few specialized volvo yards in NC if you need a number I can get it to you and you can inquire. But you cannot ask for a +90 manifold you have to specify the year and model of the car it comes on then ask for the manifold for that make an year car.

Regards
Hubert

hk 40 said:

None of these ideas mentioned will hinder him from 300 hp. but why is that always the target.

Click to expand...

Now this is a question that deserves an answer! 300 was a big deal 15+ years ago, that target should have moved up a bit by now.

At Joe it can be welded but it requires a little experience working with iron. Try a muffler shop they see this kinda thing often. The silverado was like this i just took a trip to LKQ to solve it. Are you having issues finding 90 manifolds? we have a few specialized volvo yards in NC if you need a number I can get it to you and you can inquire. But you cannot ask for a +90 manifold you have to specify the year and model of the car it comes on then ask for the manifold for that make an year car.

Regards
Hubert

Click to expand...

at this point in the game, most 90+ turbo manifolds have cracking in the same location (heck most of them were cracked 10 years ago), but for conversation's sake, it's any 92-95 turbo model exhaust manifold. may want to specify whether egr or non egr as well, some do have a bung in the #4 runner for egr.

side note on the silverado manifolds, assuming you're talking about the 99+ gm trucks, those things weld up easy and beautiful (fyi).

linuxman51 said:

Now this is a question that deserves an answer! 300 was a big deal 15+ years ago, that target should have moved up a bit by now.




at this point in the game, most 90+ turbo manifolds have cracking in the same location (heck most of them were cracked 10 years ago), but for conversation's sake, it's any 92-95 turbo model exhaust manifold. may want to specify whether egr or non egr as well, some do have a bung in the #4 runner for egr.

side note on the silverado manifolds, assuming you're talking about the 99+ gm trucks, those things weld up easy and beautiful (fyi).

Click to expand...

Hmmm not trying to be funny but I think they do it because you guys have 300+ posted beside your names and that carries alot of weight for some people here. But would you not agree that its the 300 club members that should be setting higher goals and posting higher numbers with their avatars first ? Shouldn't they have certainly grown in 15 years? Kinda difficult when you give up and go the LS route....the easy way.

The Truck in question was actually a 94 im not sure there alot of difference there i know 96 are about the same but some have an boss for 02 and some didnt but I just went a grabbed one not broken from the jy.

hk 40 said:

Hmmm not trying to be funny but I think they do it because you guys have 300+ posted beside your names and that carries alot of weight for some people here. But would you not agree that its the 300 club members that should be setting higher goals and posting higher numbers with their avatars first ? Shouldn't they have certainly grown in 15 years? Kinda difficult when you give up and go the LS route....the easy way.

Click to expand...

Some have given up and gone the LS route, and to a certain degree, why not-it's easy. the 300+ club thing is the only one, that's part of why that's there. It was proposed to create more of them a bit back, but then folks started getting upset about who got to claim what based on _____________, and I don't think the discussion moved from there.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=358715

Dana would need to opine on that, but I'm all for it.

The Truck in question was actually a 94 im not sure there alot of difference there i know 96 are about the same but some have an boss for 02 and some didnt but I just went a grabbed one not broken from the jy.

Click to expand...

gotcha. sometimes easier is just easier.