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B2XX in a 144 using the yoshifab mounts

Mr.Borrie

The Sneaky F*ing Ukrainian
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Location
Netherlands
Anyone already did this cause i'm planning to use the ones i bought but i got a few delemma's



Like what engine to pick

- Known good B230F i pulled from my 744 from 89, has LH
- B200 i pulled from a 360 did run but not move it did rev nice and idle nice
- B200 with carb in a 360 i would need to pull, works good


For my 144 i need a carb engine since i will be running LPG on it. I need my car allot so i'm lookin for the engine to be prepped and be droped in over a weekend.

Current B20 is leaking like crazy, i think i killed it, also its running on 2 cylinders and 2 not so well ones. already checked and adjussted the valves but looks like cooked valves since it did not help allot.

Okay so considering i chooce one of th engines and put on the manufold from the 360 (only carb mani i got right now) how would i go about the nex things

gearbox-

Can i just put on the B20 flywheel clutch etc an put on the original manual box for now? might wanna change to a overdrive one from a 740 later on but i need it to be quick and working for now

-What things should i also consider, i saw the breakbox needs to be move/ made longer.

- I saw the exhaust is the same but will i need to make it short/longer to fit?

- trotthlecable mounting?

Thats about all i can think of right now
 
Wanting to do this over the weekend , and have the pressure to be able to run it on monday is not the smartest thing to do , IMO.
If you dont have a special clutch/bellhousing the trans wont fit AFAIK. The m45/46/47 can be used in the ( now) tilted position , but you will have to do some work on the shifter and trans member.
You will use the b20 pan and oil pump, I guess ?
Remember theres a bit more work to be done on the b200/230 than on the b21/23 , because of the crank throws being different , some metal work will be required.
The 74 140 models use a cable for the throttle instead of the rod arrangement
 
Just wanted to add : The b20 flywheel will fit if its from an 8 bolt crank ( 73-76 ) model , there is no difference at all between b20 and later ,flat flywheels. We drill them for use of LH 2.4 , and put them on b230?s
Older b20 flywheels are 6 bolt , and everything will be slightly off in that area anyway , because there was a change in threads and dowels to metric at the same time the crank became 8 bolt
 
Wanting to do this over the weekend , and have the pressure to be able to run it on monday is not the smartest thing to do , IMO.
If you dont have a special clutch/bellhousing the trans wont fit AFAIK. The m45/46/47 can be used in the ( now) tilted position , but you will have to do some work on the shifter and trans member.
You will use the b20 pan and oil pump, I guess ?
Remember theres a bit more work to be done on the b200/230 than on the b21/23 , because of the crank throws being different , some metal work will be required.
The 74 140 models use a cable for the throttle instead of the rod arrangement


yes i will be using a B20 or the 360 oilpan and pump.
i thought the B20 gearbox would work bolt on but thats not the case then?
What gearbox will fit on the rearaxle with no adjustments to the drivetrain or swaping a bit of drivetrain over?

What kind of metal works will be required on the B200/B230? i saw some B21/23's on the internet for sale for not allot if thats would make things more easy?

Just wanted to add : The b20 flywheel will fit if its from an 8 bolt crank ( 73-76 ) model , there is no difference at all between b20 and later ,flat flywheels. We drill them for use of LH 2.4 , and put them on b230?s
Older b20 flywheels are 6 bolt , and everything will be slightly off in that area anyway , because there was a change in threads and dowels to metric at the same time the crank became 8 bolt

I'll check i got a spare B20 (1970) and the one in the car (a 72/73 not sure) so there should be one that works.

But what about clutchs and pressureplates, use the B20 gearbox ones or the B230 gearbox ones
 
Listen , all of my info comes from reading about swaps , and Id suggest you do the same.
If you are uncertain about all these things , its not really possible to do this in one weekends time , do you think ?

I could be wrong , but the m40/41 gearbox and bell housing wont fit other than the b18-20 engines , there was a bellhousing in the 240 from 76 that would allow you to fit an m45-46-47- on a b20 , but you want to do the opposite.Maybe things can be modded , but I know for a fact that just the fit between gearbox and tranny differs quite a lot between the tranny types.

As I said , I have seen the loony Swedes use upright engine and normal m45-46-47 behind them. Now your tranny will be tilted to one side , and the linkage will require modding , and so will the trans member-

If you went into this thinking that everything would bolt up , you are in for a tough time. Your q?s about driveshaft and exhaust leads me to believe that you really dont have the means/tools/mates to make all this ish fit........do you ?

Why the h@ll people insist on raising the engine up in these cars , is beyond me. Its not like you need the clearance as often in a 140 as you would in a 121 or a PV. People may think that its cool and all , but in reality it makes everything more work , like fitting an engine from an alltogether different manufacturer , and then using a tranny from a another car at the same time.....

.The easiest would be to rebuild the B20 , period.

If you want to use a Volvo OHC engine , its far easier to mount it in the standard angle , that way you wont have any issues fitting the tranny , and will " only" have to worry about trans mount and driveshaft. You will still have to deal with the pan and oil pump I believe , as the engine wont fit behind the cross member. Maybe the 300 series oil pan will help you , but I doubt it. Its alu , and will be harder to weld etc.

IF you use m45-46-47 gearbox , you can use any flat flywheel with 8 bolts , and the clutch disc differs only from about 1980 , count the splines thats the difference.Any component related to the clutch from the earlier cars will fit m40 and nothing else afaik.Maybe the throwout bearing can be used , but you will have to check that out.

I may be wrong but I think the b21-23 with b20 oil pump will only require some clearance grinding. The b200-b230 cranks have twice as many counterweights , and I think theres welding and cutting involved to get clearance for the oil pump.

So , if you want my advise - rebuild the B20.
'
Want to use a B230 engine ? Fine so would I , but you or I wouldnt be able do it in one weekend , and neither would most other people.

Want to mount the B230 upright = a lot more extra work than anything else mentioned.
 
The one good thing about the B200 is it has the shorter water pump and associated pulley. You'll need that setup regardless of what engine (B200 or B23x) you ultimately end up using if you want to use a puller e-fan.

Personally I'm using a B230FT with the B200 water pump and pulley to allow more room for the e-fan I have.

Viking20: There is ONE YEAR bellhousing that you can use on the M46/47, and that is from the '75 242 which came with a -20, but an M46. It correctly places the B2xx standing straight up. I have not personally seen this done with the swaps, but have seen the motor in a '75 242 with the M46 (at least I'm pretty sure it was an M46). In fact, I just saw that very car in the PnP here in Portland a couple of days ago.

FYI: For those of you who want to build a performance B-20, that is also the motor you want.
 
Listen , all of my info comes from reading about swaps , and Id suggest you do the same.
If you are uncertain about all these things , its not really possible to do this in one weekends time , do you think ?

I was just sudgesting that i would build up the engine and the tranny in my garage and swap the whole thing over in a weekend. Car still drives but there will be a time i want to replace.

A few member here did the swap that's why i was asking for pointers that's all. Dont know if you have looked into any of my build but i think i can manage a swap like this if i read myself into it first.


I could be wrong , but the m40/41 gearbox and bell housing wont fit other than the b18-20 engines , there was a bellhousing in the 240 from 76 that would allow you to fit an m45-46-47- on a b20 , but you want to do the opposite.Maybe things can be modded , but I know for a fact that just the fit between gearbox and tranny differs quite a lot between the tranny types.

Again just asking, i can scoop up a M45-46-47 no problem my qustion was if the drivetrain would be still swapable witoud having it welded and recalibered.

The old B20 tranny is out of the question if you want it easy, thats fine just asking.


As I said , I have seen the loony Swedes use upright engine and normal m45-46-47 behind them. Now your tranny will be tilted to one side , and the linkage will require modding , and so will the trans member-

If you went into this thinking that everything would bolt up , you are in for a tough time. Your q?s about driveshaft and exhaust leads me to believe that you really dont have the means/tools/mates to make all this ish fit........do you ?

Nope was not thinking this at all, but i figure if i get the engine and box done in the garage propperly the swap itself should be doable in a weekend maybe. anyway i got more than one car i just preffer this one cause it runs on LPG so if the swap should take a week or whatever thats fine too.

Why the h@ll people insist on raising the engine up in these cars , is beyond me. Its not like you need the clearance as often in a 140 as you would in a 121 or a PV. People may think that its cool and all , but in reality it makes everything more work , like fitting an engine from an alltogether different manufacturer , and then using a tranny from a another car at the same time.....

Cause they make more power, dont have camgears that break, cause it uniqe and cool to have

.The easiest would be to rebuild the B20 , period..

true but i do lack the rebuilding tools, i do have just about any other tool

If you want to use a Volvo OHC engine , its far easier to mount it in the standard angle , that way you wont have any issues fitting the tranny , and will " only" have to worry about trans mount and driveshaft. You will still have to deal with the pan and oil pump I believe , as the engine wont fit behind the cross member. Maybe the 300 series oil pan will help you , but I doubt it. Its alu , and will be harder to weld etc.

Correct me if i'm, wrong but i saw someone here just use the oilpump and sump of a B20.

34pakqo.jpg

2ntife1.jpg


here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=213604

IF you use m45-46-47 gearbox , you can use any flat flywheel with 8 bolts , and the clutch disc differs only from about 1980 , count the splines thats the difference.Any component related to the clutch from the earlier cars will fit m40 and nothing else afaik.Maybe the throwout bearing can be used , but you will have to check that out.

Ok cool thanks for that!


I may be wrong but I think the b21-23 with b20 oil pump will only require some clearance grinding. The b200-b230 cranks have twice as many counterweights , and I think theres welding and cutting involved to get clearance for the oil pump.

never heard of any welding on the pan before, but makes sence what your saying

So , if you want my advise - rebuild the B20..

hmmm, nah


Want to use a B230 engine ? Fine so would I , but you or I wouldnt be able do it in one weekend , and neither would most other people.

Okay well thats the answer i was looking for, looks like have to do some more research but thats part of the game

Want to mount the B230 upright = a lot more extra work than anything else mentioned.

Okay thanks for all the info, i was not trying to be ignorant just checking my options and looking for some pointers to the things i was thinking about that might needed modding.
 
The one good thing about the B200 is it has the shorter water pump and associated pulley. You'll need that setup regardless of what engine (B200 or B23x) you ultimately end up using if you want to use a puller e-fan..


I had no idea it was shorter i was thinking to run a 360 pump and pully

Personally I'm using a B230FT with the B200 water pump and pulley to allow more room for the e-fan I have.

I'd love to run the B230FK i also have but with LPG and quick and fast its best to stay carb so no turbo for me ...yet

Viking20: There is ONE YEAR bellhousing that you can use on the M46/47, and that is from the '75 242 which came with a -20, but an M46. It correctly places the B2xx standing straight up. I have not personally seen this done with the swaps, but have seen the motor in a '75 242 with the M46 (at least I'm pretty sure it was an M46). In fact, I just saw that very car in the PnP here in Portland a couple of days ago.

yeah now i remeber, the manual from a B2XX is also made to be sort of sideways and not straightup.. it does get oil issue's from being facedup then i assume.


FYI: For those of you who want to build a performance B-20, that is also the motor you want.

hey dont make me regret getting those adapters :p
haha no but the B2XX are nice to run on LPG so its a good thing for me oing this swap, also i think its interesting to fiddle around with it
 
Borrie , I didnt mean to swing a bat against your head , but just give you a heads-up that this swap isnt just done in a hurry for most of us.

Sorry , if it came off that way !

There is already too many old cars standing still for way too long , because time didnt allow finishing it.......I know , Ive got one or two myself.

The bell housing mentioned was used in the 240 in 1976 , a few will show up in 75 cars. It allows you to use a b20 with the m45 ( or newer) The early 240 came with b20 and both m40 or m45 tranny , the giveaway is the ring on the gear lever for the reverse gear on the m45 models

I know some swedes mod the earlier bell housing for the m45 , but I have no idea how much work is needed.

The 8 bolt flywheel is used from the 74 model year , so it will have come out late 73.
The flywheel will fit as long as it use 8 bolts , on any redblock.
The 340/360 waterpumps are a bit shorter , so youll have choice of either the b19 or b200 pump since both engines were used in these cars.

The cranks can be swapped between late b20 ( 8 bolt) and b19/21/23. Theres a bushing on the front of the crank that became built in as part of the design over time , and then it wont fit the b20 without machining.

Therefore , I would guess the clearance when using the b20 oil pump will be a small issue.
When used in the b200/b230 block , Im certain that I have seen threads where people had to cut and weld pump/pickup for clearance.
Anything is possible , but it takes time , and a lot of work:-P
 
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Nice that you are giving this a go.


Let me tell you what I did,

-B20 oil sump with original b230 oil pump cut to fit and fabricated a screen on the end.

-M47 in tilted position (in 1st and 2nd gear you have to move your knee a bit out of the way). Just cut out the transmission tunnel and put in one out of a 72 or later, this will slide ride in, you only have to make a bit more room for the shifter. There are holes with tread in the beams were the transmission mounts, the 740 transmission mount will line up perfectly with these holes.

-I think I've used a 940 m46 with overdrive prop shaft and the pulley from a 940 on the rear axle as well (the original bolt pastern didn't line correctly up with the prop shaft)

-The brake booster needs to be lengthened by about 150 tot 200mm (this give some clearance issues with the battery, I have used a battery out of an f16 that is only half the hight of a regular one.)

-Gas paddle and cable came out of a 740, just make a hole in the firewall and bolt in the paddle.

-Exhaust wise I don't know how that will be on a n/a engine. The downpipe of a turbo has to be cut and re welded, lengthwise this fits on my 2,5 inch original 144 Simmons exhaust.

This was pretty much it, there might be a bunch of little things that I can''t come up with at the moment.
If you want to do a FK or FT on LPG and don't want to build in the injection system I would recommend the LPG setup that I got on my 144. the turbo vaporiser works pretty well, stoch mixture while cruising and a bit on the rich side on full boost (about .8bar) It''s a 200kw vaporiser and I think it can deliver about that. The 144 is not that comfy but a blast to drive.
 
You can find modded as in welded bellhousings on Marktplaats all the time. I bet if you go to the VKB today or tomorrow you will find them as well.
Last time I saw one for sale on MP it was probably for around 100 euros.

Why do you think a 360 sump would work? They are shaped quite different, have never seen anybody use that sump in a 100 series car.
 
so i believe this can all be done with stock parts. I'm sure its been mentioned before, but the biggest hurdle to making this bolt in is finding a specific part. The 75 240 cars with the stick shift came with b20 and m45. m45 is a close cousin of the m46/m47 transmissions aka they use the same mouting bolt pattern. you need to shorten the fuel pump sender and of course use the b20 pan.
 
Hi,,
interesting, I have a 1970's 142 with B20A..
and looking for info to swap for a B230A with M47 (I think)

any details and info on that??

mazzel!

Patrick
 
I use an M46 with my B20, using the suggested modified bellhousing. The same person offers a bellhousing for an upright positioned B2**, allthough it doesn't show on his site.

http://www.hukebasart.nl/huke/?Koppelingshuizen

the B21 - M40 combination is indeed an excotic one, B20 - M46 a bit less but still more expensive than the modified one.

About the sump, i've seen a modification involving a B20 that has been cut and welded, and also had the oilleed from the pump changed as well so it fit's in that sump again, and the whole is able to clear the front axle member..
 
I use an M46 with my B20, using the suggested modified bellhousing. The same person offers a bellhousing for an upright positioned B2**, allthough it doesn't show on his site.

http://www.hukebasart.nl/huke/?Koppelingshuizen

the B21 - M40 combination is indeed an excotic one, B20 - M46 a bit less but still more expensive than the modified one.

About the sump, i've seen a modification involving a B20 that has been cut and welded, and also had the oilleed from the pump changed as well so it fit's in that sump again, and the whole is able to clear the front axle member..

any idea on the full price?
 
I haven't got mine running yet, but I do have the engine in.

Used the yoshifab mounts and offset 240 engine mounts with the locating tabs cut off. Along with some washers to space the offset mount from the b20 mounts. Just used a flat b230 flywheel w/ the 140 clutch kit everything fit up great and clutch cable throw is just fine. M41 bolted up to the b230 just fine. Used a b20 oil pan w/ a shortened b230 pump.

For the throttle I'm going to use a 240 gas pedal and cable modded to use the floor pedal. Going to have a custom intake fabricated so I don't have to mess with the brake booster. Had to use a 2 row underdrive pulley to clear the sway bar. Another tricky part is the alternator, I'm having a new mount made for a super small denso racing alternator and using a regular tensioner, which just barely clears the passenger steering arm mount.

Just going to use the b20 radiator w/ expansion tank, going to have to use a pusher fan as the b230 pump doesn't give me enough room. Looking at mounting it further towards the front or switching pumps.

As with most swaps there any number of ways to get things done, its just whatever you feel up to doing.
 
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