home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > projects & restorations

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2020, 05:46 PM   #951
Canuck
Frozen Garage Hell
 
Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lethbridge, AB, Canada
Default

Looks great. It's not that hard to break it apart and weld it up. It'll move a little, weld it to the collector first then the flange and clamp that sucker down.
__________________
- Craig

1966 Canadian (B5234T, C4 up front, Supra out back and a nut in the middle) http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=328003
1981 242 (B230FT, LH 2.4...and a few other things)

YouTube channel covering Canadian build https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsx...n3CiBQFd4rMyXw
Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2020, 10:36 PM   #952
Vol242vo
Keep it clean...
 
Vol242vo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Spokane, WA
Default

Work of art. Looks really nice.
__________________
Derek
1 Owner - 85k mile 1980 242
Recaro LX Bs - 16" ARE 398s - 25/25 Sway Bars - Bilstein HDs - SuperPro Poly/STS Derlin Bushings - MSD - R Sport Wheel

-Project Thread-

Follow on IG: @vol242vo
Vol242vo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2020, 11:38 PM   #953
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Thanks, guys! I'm pretty happy with it so far. I'll need to brace the hell out of it since it puts the turbo way out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
Looks great. It's not that hard to break it apart and weld it up. It'll move a little, weld it to the collector first then the flange and clamp that sucker down.
That was the original thought. But the Joints to the collector will be very difficult, if not impossible to get to with the runners already welded. I think we will weld all the 'els' onto the collector, then weld each runner as a sub assembly, then weld those to the els at the collector, and then to the flange. So annoying...

I wanted to fully weld runner number 2, which would act like a jig, but now I'm thinking we'll have to break that on apart too. So I guess I'll have to make a separate jig to keep the collector and flange in the right spots.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 12:13 PM   #954
vwbusman66
Stößelstange über alles!
 
vwbusman66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingsville, MD/ Morgantown, WV
Default

Just dip the whole thing in jb weld?
__________________
1971 142 beater/fake racecar
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
the only problem with that is what you define as cheap and fast
Quote:
Originally Posted by propav8r
The incest is implied.
vwbusman66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 11:49 AM   #955
Canuck
Frozen Garage Hell
 
Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lethbridge, AB, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post

That was the original thought. But the Joints to the collector will be very difficult, if not impossible to get to with the runners already welded. I think we will weld all the 'els' onto the collector, then weld each runner as a sub assembly, then weld those to the els at the collector, and then to the flange. So annoying...

I wanted to fully weld runner number 2, which would act like a jig, but now I'm thinking we'll have to break that on apart too. So I guess I'll have to make a separate jig to keep the collector and flange in the right spots.
Jig for sure. I usually just scab together some channel and get it bolted down. Sucks for one's and two's but it's really needed. Tube is worse - but this stuff still moves a lot. I just hate that part. Beautiful fit, weld it up and get the grinder out to get it to fit. For me, it's the reason you can't make money building manifolds. Too much hand work.

Are you two passing the pipe? Big gas lens and a lot of stick out...and a cheater in my lid - and pray I don't shake! If I can get a supply of weld els (looking for 321 90's and Ace Race is out) I'll be welding one up in a few months. I've also changed my manifold flange design so that I'm not doing the fillet to the flange, but doing a butt weld to the runners.

Can't wait to see this one done - looks fantastic.
Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 01:29 PM   #956
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
Jig for sure. I usually just scab together some channel and get it bolted down. Sucks for one's and two's but it's really needed. Tube is worse - but this stuff still moves a lot. I just hate that part. Beautiful fit, weld it up and get the grinder out to get it to fit. For me, it's the reason you can't make money building manifolds. Too much hand work.

Are you two passing the pipe? Big gas lens and a lot of stick out...and a cheater in my lid - and pray I don't shake! If I can get a supply of weld els (looking for 321 90's and Ace Race is out) I'll be welding one up in a few months. I've also changed my manifold flange design so that I'm not doing the fillet to the flange, but doing a butt weld to the runners.

Can't wait to see this one done - looks fantastic.
Yeah, Noah (the guy with the welding skills) and I have been saying how hard it must be to make money doing this. It's so fiddly, and with the warping, they're all a little different.

I want to do two passes, yeah. Seems like that's the best way to get 100% penetration. But we'll see what happens once we get going. Noah is a little concerned about adding essentially twice the heat into the piece, encouraging more warping.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 01:39 PM   #957
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Looking great, Tyler. In terms of timing of the exhaust pulses into the turbine, it looks like 4 and 2 might reach the wheel at about the same time:
1...3...4-2......1...3 etc.

If you have control of individual cylinder fuel trim you might want to play with the #4 as it might run a bit richer than the others at high engine rpm. I'd think the much longer runner will effect scavenging on that cylinder also, but that's something you can verify through reading the plugs after some initial testing.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 01:51 PM   #958
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Looking great, Tyler. In terms of timing of the exhaust pulses into the turbine, it looks like 4 and 2 might reach the wheel at about the same time:
1...3...4-2......1...3 etc.

If you have control of individual cylinder fuel trim you might want to play with the #4 as it might run a bit richer than the others at high engine rpm. I'd think the much longer runner will effect scavenging on that cylinder also, but that's something you can verify through reading the plugs after some initial testing.
I was planning on using Microsquirt, which wouldn't give me individual cylinder trim. In which case, I guess I'd just have to live with a less than ideal tune.

I don't see myself buying an ECU any time soon, though, so I still have time to do some research. Would an MS3 or another fully sequential ECU let me trim one cylinder?
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 02:00 PM   #959
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
I was planning on using Microsquirt, which wouldn't give me individual cylinder trim. In which case, I guess I'd just have to live with a less than ideal tune.

I don't see myself buying an ECU any time soon, though, so I still have time to do some research. Would an MS3 or another fully sequential ECU let me trim one cylinder?
I don't think it's going to be strictly necessary, just thinking of ways you could optimize if you wanted to. I believe MS3 can do it if you're running sequential injection. You would really want to install individual pre-turbine widebands on each runner though, in addition to a post-turbine wideband. Or at least have bungs in each runner and then tune each cylinder individually by moving one additional wideband through each of them, one at a time.

I'm just benchracing really, feel free to ignore.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 02:24 PM   #960
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
I don't think it's going to be strictly necessary, just thinking of ways you could optimize if you wanted to. I believe MS3 can do it if you're running sequential injection. You would really want to install individual pre-turbine widebands on each runner though, in addition to a post-turbine wideband. Or at least have bungs in each runner and then tune each cylinder individually by moving one additional wideband through each of them, one at a time.

I'm just benchracing really, feel free to ignore.
Bench racing is highly encouraged here, since this car won't actually run for quite some time. This will be my first time messing with any kind of tunable ECU, so I doubt I'll really consider individual fuel trims, but it's fun to think about.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 02:25 PM   #961
Canuck
Frozen Garage Hell
 
Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lethbridge, AB, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Yeah, Noah (the guy with the welding skills) and I have been saying how hard it must be to make money doing this. It's so fiddly, and with the warping, they're all a little different.

I want to do two passes, yeah. Seems like that's the best way to get 100% penetration. But we'll see what happens once we get going. Noah is a little concerned about adding essentially twice the heat into the piece, encouraging more warping.
It's less heat if you do two passes. The first is basically just fusion with very little filler and depending on your land thickness would be maybe 50 A. Then the cap is put in with just enough to get it to fuse all the way around. Pulse with like 100 A full pedal.

When I was making headers, It always takes about 50% more time than I think it will take and with purging and all the other messing around, it never got fast. Mild steel would be different, but stainless is time consuming to get it nice.
Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2020, 02:41 PM   #962
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
It's less heat if you do two passes. The first is basically just fusion with very little filler and depending on your land thickness would be maybe 50 A. Then the cap is put in with just enough to get it to fuse all the way around. Pulse with like 100 A full pedal.

When I was making headers, It always takes about 50% more time than I think it will take and with purging and all the other messing around, it never got fast. Mild steel would be different, but stainless is time consuming to get it nice.
That's what I was thinking, re: heat, but I'm not doing the welding so I really don't know, haha. I wish he had a pulse set up, though.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 09:28 PM   #963
joel142
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
I'm curious how that will do, cooling-wise. Looks very similar to my fan setup, which didn't move enough air. I think your treatment of the radiator supports and top radiator cover looks great, though.

You mentioned barely clearing the hood. I assume that's just the filler neck? Do you have any pics of the mounting tabs at the bottom of the radiator? I'm thinking about that same radiator, but using a 240 style expansion tank and filling it from there. Not having the filler sticking up would help move it further forward, making room for the fan and shroud.
Yes, the cap has about a finger's thickness to the hood. I didn't want to get into modifying the radiator and/or finding yet another place for a bottle at a set height, but, I like the plan of the expansion tank. It at least give visibility of coolant height.



Here's a picture of the tabs. With the radiator centered up they just sit on the flat area before the fender wall slopes up. I found a radiator grommet on Amazon, step drilled the flange, and made a little bolt in plate with a pin that comes up. From your other thread it looks like you've made yourself some more room vertically. I thought long and hard about making the same cut because that bar sets the placement of my intercooler. I left it in not knowing what problems I'd unleash if I cut it.

The jagged hole on the right was where the intercooler piping ran on v1. The intercooler is now flipped and the pipes run out the top and I'll need to patch that hole. With the radiator there I have about 2.5" of space between the fan and the pulley. Probably room enough for a shroud. Shame to have something be at >1/8" tolerance in that bay...



Everything stacked in there. I need to trim the bottom oil cooler mount because it interferes with the grill trim. It's 1/4" spacing between each cooler.
__________________
'71 142E, M41, Corbeau GT seats, iPd bars and springs, Nardi wheel, GT gauges, overmatched KYB Gas-A-Justs, Canisto wheels, 7" and Series 175 Cibies
'95 T5-R, yellow, M56H swap
joel142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2020, 11:26 AM   #964
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joel142 View Post

Everything stacked in there.
That looks great. I like that your oil cooler is able to fit. That's where mine was on my old 8 valve setup, but the way I ended up doing my radiator this time means I'll have to find a new spot for the oil cooler. I may just commit to the no bumper look and mount it in one of the old bumper holes.

This is how I lowered the radiator support to use the 16x20 radiator I already had.

2" square tubing, set about 1.5" lower than the old support:


M8 riv nuts in the bottom for splash pan/air diverter. I figure a big part of the poor cooling was the high pressure in the engine bay:


Roughly where the radiator will sit. This should give me room for a proper 14" fan and a decent shroud:
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2020, 09:33 PM   #965
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Got the radiator more or less bolted in. It's crazy to have this much room behind the radiator in a 140. Should make packaging everything a lot easier.



I'm pretty happy with the little supports I made to hold the radiator and give the hood slam panel its rigidity back after cutting off the old radiator supports. I made the new supports out of some 1.25" 1/8" square tube I had laying around. Unfortunately, I used the project to practice TIG welding, so they are pretty rough. Powder coat will help.

Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2020, 06:13 PM   #966
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

I would kill to have that many room for activities behind my radiator in the 122. I'm back to running my radiator tipped forward 15* to clear the new whirly boi goin in.

A flap disc should blend those welds nicely. I need to get in and clean up my ish welds.

Are you using scratch start tig or HF start?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2020, 06:26 PM   #967
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
I would kill to have that many room for activities behind my radiator in the 122. I'm back to running my radiator tipped forward 15* to clear the new whirly boi goin in.

A flap disc should blend those welds nicely. I need to get in and clean up my ish welds.

Are you using scratch start tig or HF start?
Scratch/lift start. It's annoying, and I have jammed SO many tungstens into the puddle right as I start. I'm very slowly getting the hang of it though. Definitely enough to stick metal together in a quiet enough way that it won't wake the baby.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 08:56 AM   #968
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Do you have arc shut off control? The hardest thing for me was termination while keeping gas coverage. I rigged up a foot switch to a 200 amp dc contactor and it was so much easier. It’s definitely worth learning.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 10:30 AM   #969
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

What do you mean by arc shutoff? It has a foot pedal, so I can taper the amperage on shut off. The post flow is not adjustable, but it seems to be tied to the amperage setting, so for hot passes, it'll flow for longer.

One funny thing with gas coverage: Whenever the cooling fan kicked on, the arc would go crazy and then burn through. I figured it was some sort of voltage thing since I was near the upper limits of the machine and using an extension cord. Turns out, I'm a dummy and had the fan inadvertently pointed right at the work piece, so it was just blowing the gas away.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 11:44 AM   #970
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Ah. Some/most old school scratch start, like mine, have no amp control, torch always live, set amps based on material thickness and go. That is the hardest to learn on, but gives you a lot of understanding of arc length control, and its effect on heat management as well a speed control. As the work piece heats up, get your best Goldblum on and must go faster till you're ready to finish. Basically you scratch the arc, pull to length, run your bead and as you get to your finish, slam some filler in the puddle to cool it then snap the arc away and come back in to maintain gas coverage.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 11:56 AM   #971
Harlard
Hurlurd?Harland?Bueller?
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Turns out, I'm a dummy and had the fan inadvertently pointed right at the work piece, so it was just blowing the gas away.
Sounds like the type of thing I do on the regular.
__________________


Herr Harlard am Erstens

1979 242 DL

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
Harlard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 05:26 PM   #972
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Sounds like the type of thing I do on the regular.
Me too. My shared workshop has a front door facing west and a roll-up door on the east side. The welding table is in between these. When we open both doors for flow-through ventilation the gas gets blown all over the place on a day with a stiff sea breeze. Took me a while to figure that one out!
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 06:00 PM   #973
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Yeah, it was a weird one. I'm just going along, overheating the **** out of some 1/8" steel, minding my own business. Fan kicks on, then BAM.



The welder was on my bench, about 12" from the piece. Shielding gas never stood a chance.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 06:41 PM   #974
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Yeah, it was a weird one. I'm just going along, overheating the **** out of some 1/8" steel, minding my own business. Fan kicks on, then BAM.



The welder was on my bench, about 12" from the piece. Shielding gas never stood a chance.
whats the cup size and what cfh are you running? I'm liking my #14 mooseknuckle and my FUPA 12 at like 35-37, and I dont seem to have issues much unless its howling with all 3 bay doors open.

Also, you may want to try not outrunning your cup. Shorten you weld travel to the width of you cup. Not sure how your machine reacts to hot restarts, but if I run an inch on sch10 (.10 wall 304ss), and cut the arc, let it cool till the orange flashes silver and smack the pedal itll fire off again without scratch, then I can keep going and the tail is cool by the time it leaves the gas coverage.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 07:08 PM   #975
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
whats the cup size and what cfh are you running? I'm liking my #14 mooseknuckle and my FUPA 12 at like 35-37, and I dont seem to have issues much unless its howling with all 3 bay doors open.

Also, you may want to try not outrunning your cup. Shorten you weld travel to the width of you cup. Not sure how your machine reacts to hot restarts, but if I run an inch on sch10 (.10 wall 304ss), and cut the arc, let it cool till the orange flashes silver and smack the pedal itll fire off again without scratch, then I can keep going and the tail is cool by the time it leaves the gas coverage.
I'm using an 8 with a gas lens, around 20-25 cfh. I know I was way too hot on this pass, too. Doing shorter runs would be way better, but I'm still at the point where I'm trying to coordinate my two hands, so I usually just power through...
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.