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Old 01-15-2020, 07:57 PM   #1
Awaffa2003
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Default Taking my car back home, time for FI

Hey guys,

So my car's been in the shop for a little over 2 months now and I'm finally taking it home. I don't care to mess with the K-Jet issues anymore and I've decided to go with a Megasquirt setup. Thing is that I have the B21 that's on the car and a B23 that's on an engine stand just sitting in the garage. Both of them run, albeit poorly so unfortunately, there's no motor that I'm "sure" will get me going right along after I tune up the MS.

So apples to apples, which motor should I fuel inject? It would likely be easier to install components on a motor that is already out of the engine bay, yet then again, what's already in the engine bay wouldn't have to have the trans reinstalled, lined up, yadda yadda yadda. Put it this way...I pulled the B23 out (first time ever) and it wasn't terribly fun and I HOPE I still have all the bolts in their labeled bags somewhere.

Both engines I'm unsure of the mileage, but I think the B21 may have less. The wagon that it's in now was VERY well taken care of. Pull the heads off and look for...what? Maybe? Yes...I'm a newb. Shoot me. But help first.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:07 PM   #2
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Neither is easier or harder to ms. You’ll need a new intake manifold to run regular injectors which the b23 might have if it was an lh1.0 car.

Are these turbo motors or na?
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:58 PM   #3
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My 79 242 (B21) was converted to a very simple Megasquirt EFI by the previous owner. It only controls the fuel at the moment, the ignition system is stock. Because I didn't do it, I can't tell you all that is involved, but I can shoot some pics if needed, and I have a tune with a lot of hours in it that I can share via email. The car is very reliable and my butt dyno says it makes a decent amount more power than the 88 240 I sold last year. My only issue is the idle is a little rough still, need a bit more tuning there, but I never really spend time idling anyway. When cold, it needs a minute or less to warm up or throttle makes it die out.

We also have an aftermarket engine management subforum under Performance & modifications where our resident experts are very helpful, especially with specific questions.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:37 PM   #4
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I converted the B21FT that I dropped into my old '80 264 to MS.

Not too difficult. I used an LH2.2 dist and a FI intake.
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Old 01-16-2020, 01:22 PM   #5
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This is on my to do list. I need to go mega/micro squirt.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:14 PM   #6
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I converted from KJet to LH2.2, but eventually went to MS1 (3.0 PCB) on my '81 B21 NA 244. Started on the very first crank. As I'm sure you know, you can bolt up all of the FI parts from the later cars. For spark, the EASIEST solution is to use an LH2.2 distributor to get the crank/tach signal. Plan to install a wideband. Tunerstudio does a very decent job of tuning a car. Get a set of 850 injectors, and you won't have to screw with any sort of resistor pack.

If you'd like, I can give you a set of fuel / spark maps that should damned near guarantee the car starts up.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:27 PM   #7
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I smell a build thead coming... Thank you all for your positivity.

The motors are NA and the only thing I want to use is the distributor. I'm ordering a manifold from KGTrimning that's for Webers and I plan on snagging Jenvey DCOE ITB's. I don't have all the money in the world, but enough to do this how I'd like it.

But OK, for now, I'm leaving the B21 in there. Anything I need to go through motor wise while I've got the stock stuff out?
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:20 PM   #8
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What parts do you have?

You will need a Fuel pump (at least a 190LPH) and a pressure regulator. A 2 line system is best (supply & return).

An intake that has provisions for modern injectors or one that can be adapted and a fuel rail. A stock manifold will be cheaper and be easier to setup than ITB.
A stock manifold will make more power at lower RPMs than ITBs.

You will need a Computer type water temp sensor (an OEM sensor that will match a hole in your head is easiest), and any 2 wire air temp sensor, and best to have a potentiometer type Throttle position sensor (this may be the hardest as I think both of your motors have just a switch type TPS if any).

At minimum You need a locked electronic distributor (no advance)

If you want idle speed control you will need a servo and plumbing. This is incorporated in many newer throttle bodies. (which would also provide a TPS)

You need to decide if you are going with a MS2 or a MicroSquirt.

MS2 will do nearly anything you want and has an ignition driver and will run a stepper type idle control or a 2 wire PWM idle control.
A MS2 will run the stock coil with a locked distributor

MicroSquirt is a subset of a MS2 system and does not have a native stepper Idle driver or an ignition driver onboard.
The Micro needs a smart coil or an external ignitor which you may already have.

You will need a harness to sacrifice for connectors.

I'd urge you to avoid low impedance injectors. You can use from 19# to 24# injectors nicely.

This should get you started, can you read a schematic and do wiring?
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Old 01-16-2020, 07:54 PM   #9
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Basically what I've got is the stock intake manifold and a Penta manifold from the B23. I'm buying the MS2 this weekend. That'll be it until I assemble the MS. As for the lack of low end power with ITBs, any more than what I've been dealing with will be a blessing and I think it will lend itself well to future plans. May not be the simplest thing to set up, but beyond that hurdle, I'm not doing anything else crazy. I've never driven a well running 240 and this is my second one so...yeah.

If I were to get any recommendations on the sizing though, is there a consensus? I was thinking the 45mm TBs would work?

As far as my ignition, I've got the stock B21 distributor and I've got a Penta dizzy on the B23. Only thing that sucks is that I couldn't find a replacement cap for it, not that it's bad (I don't think, I had spark when I pulled it) but it is a wear item. I was thinking about going with the Yoshifab Billet CAS Adapter. I'm trying to do what I can now for upgrades later, like I mentioned previously.

Fuel pumps and FPRs are foreign to me though as well as mounting them. Will the stock in tank pump be okay to supply an aftermarket pump?

And yes, I can read a schematic and do wiring.
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Old 01-16-2020, 09:40 PM   #10
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Is it this one?


See this link for EFI conversion of that manifold: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=350349
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:01 PM   #11
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Someone will correct me if I am wrong I'm sure, but I believe that manifold is not as good as a B230F manifold.
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
Is it this one?


See this link for EFI conversion of that manifold: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=350349
You're being funny right? Because that's literally my wagon haha.
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:52 PM   #13
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Yes, I was drooling over that wagon 5 years ago when it was up for sale from the NY Rover dealer. It looked in very nice shape from the pictures, but the dealer never responded to my email questions so I ended up getting my '85 GLT from WA a few months later. I really liked the look of the quad rounds and amber turn signals, so much so that I bought a set to retro fit my '85 before it had even been delivered.

For a MS conversion, I'd leave the current engine in place as-is and initially swap to a LH2.4 B230F intake manifold, throttle body, injectors, fuel rail, air box, etc. Maybe someone who's parting out a car can make you a package deal? For the throttle position sensor, you need to convert from the microswitches to a variable resistance sensor. I think yoshifab that has the key TPS conversion part. Get it running and see how you like it. You can always change/upgrade later, and just retune the MS as needed.

For wiring, get the 10' harness for your MS. Don't use the relay board - it adds a lot more connections that can fail, and isn't waterproof. Find a good fuse block and a few relays. Dave Barton / 240turbo.com sells lots of the connector housings and pins.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:25 AM   #14
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I actually think I have the original intake/rail/browntops I used on my car, before I swapped out for a powdercoated one and different injectors.

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Old 01-17-2020, 01:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post
Someone will correct me if I am wrong I'm sure, but I believe that manifold is not as good as a B230F manifold.
That old KJet manifold is actually better than the B230F manifold. There are a number of them floating around on TB... You need to drill the manifold and weld in injector ports & a install a fuel rail, but the large plenum style intake has shown to provide a bump.

Now, it's certainly not as easy as just sticking on a B230F intake and rolling.

OP, I'd personally skip the ITBs and focus on a turbo setup. You'll make much more power, and spend a hell of a lot less money. If you really want an NA car, then perhaps look at a 16V NA setup. Or... throw in an LS, and call it a day.
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:14 PM   #16
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For an NA setup, I think you would be happier with the B23 vs. the B21. 200cc's more displacement and a good bit higher compression makes for a noticeable difference in power. I had an '82 with a B21 3:55 rear end and an '83 B23 with a 3.31 rear and the '83 was much less of a dog as far as power went.

Last edited by Wren; 01-17-2020 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:31 PM   #17
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Ok look lol.

I want to do these things here properly. What I avoid in "+t ing for cheap over ITBs" is buying someone's used turbo setup or some cheap eBay knock off. I don't care to do all that plumbing vs bolting on these ITBs and necessary sensors, filters, a fuel pump, the MS, tuning the damn thing and calling it a day. I can do a turbo upgrade with the ITBs when I have the money to Shell out for something that won't grenade and put me back at square one with one motor in worse shape than I started with.

Also the case with a B230 manifold. It's just a manifold and TB, yes. AND I can source one locally, I know a guy that has 3 wagons in his yard that I can see from Google Maps. But then I'll have to worry about the condition of the injectors and hope that I don't snap whatever connections go with it.

I'm thinking towards a less problematic future here guys.

Or is this not the TB way
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:35 PM   #18
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For an NA setup, I think you would be happier with the B23 vs. the B21. 200cc's more displacement and a good bit higher compression makes for a noticeable difference in power. I had an '82 with a B21 3:55 rear end and an '83 B23 with a 3.31 rear and the '83 much less of a dog as far as power went.
This I may consider seeing as I'll be swapping out the trans that's mated with my B21 for the one that was mated to the B23. The trans in the wagon is grinding when I shift into 1st and 2nd. Changed fluid with proper ATF and no better. I'm down for piecing together the B23 in the stand, mating the trans and doing that swap, thanks for the encouragement.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:20 PM   #19
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What do you want out of the wagon? Stately classic? DD? Sleeper? Racecar? Trailer Queen with shiny ITBs and a mirror polished manifold?

How many miles a year? Empty roads or stop-and-go rush hour traffic? Do you care if it doesn't idle well and has poor low end power?

I'd still suggest swapping in a standard B230 EFI setup using the B21 engine in the car as-is. Almost all the parts fit perfectly and bolt right on. This will let you get the car running, will let you learn about MS (using a standard MAP-based setup), and will let you refresh/rebuild the B23 at your leisure. If you're set on staying NA with ITBs, you can swap them on later and change to a more fussy MS Alpha-N setup.

Besides, if your "nice" engine is on the stand, you won't worry so much about making mistakes while learning MS: let's try +10 degrees across the board..... ahh, that's some nice power there, but oh my, I guess that's what pinging sounds like.

For parts, find a recently totaled 240/740/940, preferably with damage well away from the parts you want -- i.e. it was running just before the accident. If you can find a good part-out deal, I'd guess less than $400 for the engine compartment parts. YMMV.

Two suggestions:
1) spend a few hours, or more, going through the "projects" threads to get a better idea of common upgrades and how much abuse these redblock engines can take.
2) go find a complete 86+ 240 and spend some time looking in detail at all the EFI parts, and how nicely they fit the available space. Whatever your setup, you'll need equivalent parts and will need to wire them to the MS.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:39 PM   #20
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What do you want out of the wagon? Stately classic? DD? Sleeper? Racecar? Trailer Queen with shiny ITBs and a mirror polished manifold?

How many miles a year? Empty roads or stop-and-go rush hour traffic? Do you care if it doesn't idle well and has poor low end power?

I'd still suggest swapping in a standard B230 EFI setup using the B21 engine in the car as-is. Almost all the parts fit perfectly and bolt right on. This will let you get the car running, will let you learn about MS (using a standard MAP-based setup), and will let you refresh/rebuild the B23 at your leisure. If you're set on staying NA with ITBs, you can swap them on later and change to a more fussy MS Alpha-N setup.

Besides, if your "nice" engine is on the stand, you won't worry so much about making mistakes while learning MS: let's try +10 degrees across the board..... ahh, that's some nice power there, but oh my, I guess that's what pinging sounds like.

For parts, find a recently totaled 240/740/940, preferably with damage well away from the parts you want -- i.e. it was running just before the accident. If you can find a good part-out deal, I'd guess less than $400 for the engine compartment parts. YMMV.

Two suggestions:
1) spend a few hours, or more, going through the "projects" threads to get a better idea of common upgrades and how much abuse these redblock engines can take.
2) go find a complete 86+ 240 and spend some time looking in detail at all the EFI parts, and how nicely they fit the available space. Whatever your setup, you'll need equivalent parts and will need to wire them to the MS.
I hear you. This wagon will be my DD for sure. Planning a road trip for April to Colorado that I'm convinced that I'm taking the 240 come hell or high water.

So the consensus is that I'm spinning my wheels with ITBs...? What you're saying is that it's impossible to dial in and run well across the RPM range, am I hearing this correctly?
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:02 PM   #21
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I hear you. This wagon will be my DD for sure. Planning a road trip for April to Colorado that I'm convinced that I'm taking the 240 come hell or high water.

So the consensus is that I'm spinning my wheels with ITBs...? What you're saying is that it's impossible to dial in and run well across the RPM range, am I hearing this correctly?
3 months to a road trip --> take the simplest and best proven path, there's alway next Summer's road trip.

If you want more power, it's much easier and cheaper to start with the factory turbo parts. Volvo was an early adopter of turbo technology and tended to make it pretty bomb proof. This allows reasonable reliability with a +T on a higher compression NA setup, and with higher boost.

I'm sure that there are lots of folks who are happy with their ITB setups. Around here, the expertise is in standard turbo setups, either factory LH Jetronic MAF or MegaSquirt MAP. I've seen very little on ITBs and Alpha-N here. The main problem is that the air flow through a single ITB behaves much differently than the air flow through a shared manifold, especially at idle. Maybe try the msextra forums for advice on alpha-N tuning?
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:59 PM   #22
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Lowest $ route is clearly the dime-a-dozen B230F intake & rail. Your old B21 will need the Kjet injector holes in the head plugged; I think STS makes those plugs for low cost.

Alternately, find the build thread for "The Jolly Roger", Euro TBer. I believe he used his original KJ intake (the one in your pics) and custom built a fuel rail to mount his EFI injectors right in the original locations. I don't recall the guy's handle right now, but his English is good and he is quite helpful.

Bottom line - with your choice of MS, you can have reliable running B21 fairly quickly. As Bob says, start tuning, then learn, change, grow. You'll be pleased with how well the B21 runs with MS.

Wren is correct about the displacement of the B23..... that extra torque is always handy. Rick and Bob can steer you safely about deploying MS. Tuner Studio is a thing o beauty..... you will learn much!

Good luck
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Old 01-19-2020, 05:56 PM   #23
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I converted from KJet to LH2.2, but eventually went to MS1 (3.0 PCB) on my '81 B21 NA 244. Started on the very first crank. As I'm sure you know, you can bolt up all of the FI parts from the later cars. For spark, the EASIEST solution is to use an LH2.2 distributor to get the crank/tach signal. Plan to install a wideband. Tunerstudio does a very decent job of tuning a car. Get a set of 850 injectors, and you won't have to screw with any sort of resistor pack.

If you'd like, I can give you a set of fuel / spark maps that should damned near guarantee the car starts up.
This. Im thinking about Microsquirt-ing my B200E (european guy here) and I have a 123 Dizzy, fully programmable one.

So if I want to convert my old K Jet too, all I need is like, B230 manifold + fuel rail, 850 injectors will fit right in, wire up the MS, throw in a wideband + MAP sensor for load and other goodies (coolant temp, air temp) and let the 123 dizzy do the job ? (I've spend the money on the thing already and it works well)
Planning on doing a turbo swap, stock turbo cuz im cheap (will get rebuilt) and that's it ?
What about the throttle position sensor tho ? from an 850 right ?

Sorry for stealing the thread, I do smell some knowledge here

Quick edit : I need advice with the stock Skinny rod. Late 88 K cast block, 2L, high comp, running high 98 octane fuel, no cat (not required here). Are they mandatory ? (13mil rod)

Last edited by Victorrr; 01-19-2020 at 05:59 PM.. Reason: I forgot to add that
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Old 01-19-2020, 07:17 PM   #24
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Don't forget a proper TPS. MS does not use switches.

Skinny rods are fine until you add boost or spray. So no good for turbo. MaxSpeed rods on eBay $250 a set

Flat or Bumpy pistons?

Programmable Dist not an advantage and you will want to turn it off to be a "Locked" distributor, no advance.

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Old 01-19-2020, 10:45 PM   #25
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DET17-Forgive my ignorance, but...the injectors on the B21 are inside the head? Like direct injection?

Dirty Rick- That 123 dizzy, is there any advantages to it compared to the Yoshifab CAS dizzy? Maybe an explaination of both would be cool if you're familiar.

All- So there's been developments. Got the '80 B21 wagon from the shop. Also brought home a very well running '93 240 wagon for a reasonable price. My only problem is that I'm running out of space to park all these cars!!! I'm gonna have to scrap something here within the next week.

I think that in it's state, I'll be able to drive my '80 to work and back for now. Could I use the 93 for parts, yes, but it runs so well that I think it'll give me a platform to start build #2, a camp wagon. In any case, I'm sold on the B23. I can build that off of the stand for now, but grabbing the 93 this weekend has blown my parts budget. F$&k.
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