home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > maintenance & nonperformance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2015, 02:59 PM   #1
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default Intermediate shaft won't go in and fits tight

My donor motor is an 86 B230FT block.

Got new intermediate bearings from NAPA pressed in at the machine shop. My intermediate wont go in without hitting it with a mallet. It also wont turn by hand with the pulley on.

Is this self clearancing, or do I having something going on that is wrong. Nothing looked warped or anything by eye.

I can get calipers out if necessary.
__________________
Perry

"Every man...should periodically be compelled to listen to opinions which are infuriating to him. To hear nothing but what is pleasing to one is to make a pillow of the mind."
St. John Ervine
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:08 PM   #2
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGrandpaTune View Post
My donor motor is an 86 B230FT block.

Got new intermediate bearings from NAPA pressed in at the machine shop. My intermediate wont go in without hitting it with a mallet. It also wont turn by hand with the pulley on.

Is this self clearancing, or do I having something going on that is wrong. Nothing looked warped or anything by eye.

I can get calipers out if necessary.

Clearance...its a bitch, calipers won't measure accurately enough to say a peep...
snap gauges and mike.

And its hard to measure deep in there...

It could be just a widdle burr....
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:20 PM   #3
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Clearance...its a bitch, calipers won't measure accurately enough to say a peep...
snap gauges and mike.

And its hard to measure deep in there...

It could be just a widdle burr....
Thanks Dr. V. Got plenty of lubriplate on there, and will just smash that bearing into shape.
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:35 PM   #4
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

Try de-burring the leading edge of the bearings. The installation process can raise a burr as their being hammered into place.

When I have this problem with B18/B20 cam bearings, I use an old cam with a diagonal groove cut along the bearing surfaces. A little white grease will hold the chips in the groove while lubing the bearing. Slowly turn the shaft while applying pressure and the burrs will be removed.
hiperfauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:42 PM   #5
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Try de-burring the leading edge of the bearings. The installation process can raise a burr as their being hammered into place.

When I have this problem with B18/B20 cam bearings, I use an old cam with a diagonal groove cut along the bearing surfaces. A little white grease will hold the chips in the groove while lubing the bearing. Slowly turn the shaft while applying pressure and the burrs will be removed.
Good to go now. Just put a bolt on the pulley at the end then turned and tapped the intermediate shaft slowly. Probably turns now with 10 ft lbs. Five minute process and rolling again.

Thanks again hiperfauto for getting the right bearings and freeze plugs. We have a 60 degree weekend coming up perfect to make some progress and get the motor going.
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:47 PM   #6
coalminer
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Georgia Mountains
Default

Those bearing shells are usually sold as "semi-finished".
This means that you will have to have them finish (line) bored after installing them into the engine block.

I ran into this problem when rebuilding a B21 engine.
I never did find a machine shop to bore the bearings, although overhead valve engines have been having the cam bearings bored forever.
It's a similar process, but I never did find anyone to do it.

I had this problem because I had a machine shop boil out the block and turn the crank.
For some reason, they removed the intermediate shaft bearings and threw them away.
They were a full service engine shop (20 years ago), and they could not line bore the bearings, so I just stopped.



I still have the block, crank, head and new bearings.

If you find someone to finish these bearings for you, I'd sure like to know who (and where) they are.

ps...My brother had the same problem when he was re-building a B21 engine to go into a 73 model P1800.
He finished the bearings by hand...one at a time using a brake hone.
I didn't think that it would work, but the engine was still running when he sold the car 3 years later.
I still don't know how he got the bore straight.
These bearings and shafts must be forgiving.

Before anyone asks, I know that the 73 model P1800 came with a B20 engine.
It's a long story..

Last edited by coalminer; 02-01-2015 at 03:57 PM..
coalminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:49 PM   #7
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Good to go, you're kidding? 10 lb*ft of torque to turn the aux shaft. You are going to seize a bearing to the shaft if you run it like that. At least, tear the s**t out of the bearing and journal that is dragging that much. Fix the problem now, otherwise, this is going to turn into a crying in your beer thread.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 04:00 PM   #8
coalminer
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Georgia Mountains
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Good to go, you're kidding? 10 lb*ft of torque to turn the aux shaft. You are going to seize a bearing to the shaft if you run it like that. At least, tear the s**t out of the bearing and journal that is dragging that much. Fix the problem now, otherwise, this is going to turn into a crying in your beer thread.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
coalminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 04:28 PM   #9
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Good to go, you're kidding? 10 lb*ft of torque to turn the aux shaft. You are going to seize a bearing to the shaft if you run it like that. At least, tear the s**t out of the bearing and journal that is dragging that much. Fix the problem now, otherwise, this is going to turn into a crying in your beer thread.
Okay, that is the only part I put in and it is freezing out. Next weekend I'll keep pulling it apart and inspecting and get the crud out. Some little piece of bearing shaving or something is probably stuck in there.

Reason to ask the stupid questions, so the motor ends up right.

Only one bearing seems to be the problem closest to cylinder one. Anyone ever tried taking superfine grit and trying to surface a bearing a little?
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 04:35 PM   #10
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGrandpaTune View Post
Okay, that is the only part I put in and it is freezing out. Next weekend I'll keep pulling it apart and inspecting and get the crud out. Some little piece of bearing shaving or something is probably stuck in there.

Reason to ask the stupid questions, so the motor ends up right.

Only one bearing seems to be the problem closest to cylinder one. Anyone ever tried taking superfine grit and trying to surface a bearing a little?
The only stupid question is one that isn't asked, resulting in disaster. I have heard of using fine wet/dry sand paper to remove bearing material, I've never done it.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 04:41 PM   #11
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: - Stock PSI Or Bust -
Default

The brake hone and grease idea sounds like the way to go to me, as it will follow the bore, and you can do a bit and test fit until it's right.
__________________
Raise The Lowered


Image hosted by servimg.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna support?

Redwood Chair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 04:52 PM   #12
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
The brake hone and grease idea sounds like the way to go to me, as it will follow the bore, and you can do a bit and test fit until it's right.
The problem with that is it is indiscriminate. IOW, it makes the whole bore larger, or, flexes right over the problem while removing material where you don't need to remove material. Usually, you can clean everything up, attempt to put the shaft in, turn it back and forth a very small amount where it is sticking and see a shiny spot appear where it is dragging. Work that spot out until the shaft slides in easily. It is the same principle/practice a lock smith uses to cut a key from the lock cylinder while it is still in the door.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 05:31 PM   #13
theknave
Board Member
 
theknave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

That's what she said.
__________________
'86 240 DL, M46 - Primer grey, yellow, silver and flat black.

'90 240 DL, AW70 - Rotting, with its guts out, on the cadaver table... the AW70 is nice tho, with a recent full fluid flush via tt 500, and an all new Yukon set of bearings (Timken) and seals at the rearend, new SKF bearings and seals at the axles.
theknave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 05:33 PM   #14
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
The problem with that is it is indiscriminate. IOW, it makes the whole bore larger, or, flexes right over the problem while removing material where you don't need to remove material. Usually, you can clean everything up, attempt to put the shaft in, turn it back and forth a very small amount where it is sticking and see a shiny spot appear where it is dragging. Work that spot out until the shaft slides in easily. It is the same principle/practice a lock smith uses to cut a key from the lock cylinder while it is still in the door.
That sounds like the best advice. I'll just keep nursing it with light sandpaper and getting the right mechanical feel. Bet a couple hours of light sanding then feeding the shaft in slowly and turning it will result in a nice spun by hand sweet spot.

Way easier having the patience for this stuff with a DD standing by and the project car still running sort of.
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 08:57 PM   #15
Hotdoggin
Board Member
 
Hotdoggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Default

micromesh sanding fabric. Look it up. It comes in like 14 different grits, and it is perfect for this application. Use your finger tip.
__________________
1978 245DL - B21 Penta carb powered!
1982 244T - Crushed
1983 245DL - SOLD
1984 244DL - Crushed
1984 245DL - Sitting in someone's yard
1991 740SE - girlfriend's car
2008 S60 2.5T - Money drainer
Hotdoggin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 09:10 PM   #16
gashog
Board Member
 
gashog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Warwick.NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coalminer View Post
Those bearing shells are usually sold as "semi-finished".
This means that you will have to have them finish (line) bored after installing them into the engine block.

I ran into this problem when rebuilding a B21 engine.
I never did find a machine shop to bore the bearings, although overhead valve engines have been having the cam bearings bored forever.
It's a similar process, but I never did find anyone to do it.

I had this problem because I had a machine shop boil out the block and turn the crank.
For some reason, they removed the intermediate shaft bearings and threw them away.
They were a full service engine shop (20 years ago), and they could not line bore the bearings, so I just stopped.



I still have the block, crank, head and new bearings.

If you find someone to finish these bearings for you, I'd sure like to know who (and where) they are.

ps...My brother had the same problem when he was re-building a B21 engine to go into a 73 model P1800.
He finished the bearings by hand...one at a time using a brake hone.
I didn't think that it would work, but the engine was still running when he sold the car 3 years later.
I still don't know how he got the bore straight.
These bearings and shafts must be forgiving.

Before anyone asks, I know that the 73 model P1800 came with a B20 engine.
It's a long story..
I don't touch those bearings for this ^ reason.
Star Crank in Port Jervis NY knows how to re fit and size them.
But; if it ain't broke, don't mess with it.
__________________

Here comes the BOOST!
gashog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 01:00 AM   #17
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gashog View Post
I don't touch those bearings for this ^ reason.
Star Crank in Port Jervis NY knows how to re fit and size them.
But; if it ain't broke, don't mess with it.
My intermediate shaft bearings were worn. The only place I could fine to get them was through NAPA. It would cost way more than a rebuild to ship my block to a specialist, and this would get away from the TBrickers guy in a shed sort of project.

The set from NAPA is maybe 70 bucks and I think another 20 to have the shop press them in. The good news is that the intermediate shaft material is hardened, and all that has to be done is get the bearings to fit. These do much less work than main bearings spinning just an oil pump around.

Sounds like a lot of nice suggestions to work with what I have. Thanks everyone. That mesh sounds really like a great idea.
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 02:04 AM   #18
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

I'd bet the rear two bearings are actually the issue. They are damn close in size but not exactly the same, at least the OEM ones I got weren't, and there were 3 different numbers on the bearings. Front is obvious, middle and rear are close but not exact. They line up at the same time between the 3 bearings, so finding which is the issue may be slightly more difficult.

As for the resolution, do as John mentioned, measure each bearing ID and compare to your intermediate shaft. Rear should be a touch smaller than the middle.

BTDT on mine.
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams "Mr. Doug" 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman "fivehundred" 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey "TrickMick" 1/10/14
Mark Baldwin "blue850t5" 7/19/18
Nick Fengler "fengler" 8/6/18
Thomas Fritz "stealthfti" 10/11/18


74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 04:11 AM   #19
gashog
Board Member
 
gashog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Warwick.NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGrandpaTune View Post
My intermediate shaft bearings were worn. The only place I could fine to get them was through NAPA. It would cost way more than a rebuild to ship my block to a specialist, and this would get away from the TBrickers guy in a shed sort of project.

The set from NAPA is maybe 70 bucks and I think another 20 to have the shop press them in. The good news is that the intermediate shaft material is hardened, and all that has to be done is get the bearings to fit. These do much less work than main bearings spinning just an oil pump around.

Sounds like a lot of nice suggestions to work with what I have. Thanks everyone. That mesh sounds really like a great idea.
Respect!
gashog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 11:55 AM   #20
OldGrandpaTune
The Road Warrior
 
OldGrandpaTune's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rural Ohio
Default

That last bearing was the troublemaker. Super Nub at work informed me we do have that mesh sandpaper. A little work with calipers, and being gentle and patient and that baby should spin with precision.

Thanks everyone for all the good advice.

Maybe someone can come up with a DIY line boring kit. Seems like lots of us will run into this problem when the intermediate bearings are replaced.
OldGrandpaTune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 12:07 PM   #21
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGrandpaTune View Post
The good news is that the intermediate shaft material is hardened,

Hardened?

Oh..


Really.

Looks like ordinary boring cast iron,,

Cuts like ordinary boring cast iron..

Has a grain structure when broken in half but a vicious POS totally inadequate 13mm rod like ordinary boring cast iron.

SMELLS like ordinary boring cast iron.

A random old file cuts it like I'd expect cast iron to cut..

Just saying, not like I really know much about cast iron, only worked with and around it for 43 years...

So what's supposed to be hardened about it?
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 12:13 PM   #22
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
The brake hone and grease idea sounds like the way to go to me, as it will follow the bore, and you can do a bit and test fit until it's right.

Ken those three prong hone things are crap for a number of reasons.. The first is the stones are brutal, likle 20X more coarse than you want, one turn would KILL the bearing surface.
One turn..

Second that shaft needs to go thru not one bearing but all 3. Gotta be a set up that does all 3 holes in one pass....

Even if the horrible slabs of concrete would not kill the bearing surface ( doood, its lead and tin alloy, softer than pooo pooo and fresh Scothch-Brite will gouge the fawk out of it) those gross three finger things will cock and move around in one hole RELATIVE to the others..

No bueno muchachito, no bueno por cylindros tambien, usar solemente le "dingle ball hone".
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 12:50 PM   #23
coalminer
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Georgia Mountains
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGrandpaTune View Post
My intermediate shaft bearings were worn. The only place I could fine to get them was through NAPA. It would cost way more than a rebuild to ship my block to a specialist, and this would get away from the TBrickers guy in a shed sort of project.

The set from NAPA is maybe 70 bucks and I think another 20 to have the shop press them in. The good news is that the intermediate shaft material is hardened, and all that has to be done is get the bearings to fit. These do much less work than main bearings spinning just an oil pump around.

Sounds like a lot of nice suggestions to work with what I have. Thanks everyone. That mesh sounds really like a great idea.

Keep us posted on how this turns out.

I do know for a fact the stock journal diameters on the counter shaft are different for each of those bearings.
Largest being the front journal and smallest being in the rear.

Front.....46.975mm - 47.000mm (1.849" - 1.850") Bearing clearance .0008 -.003"
Middle.. 43.025mm - 43.050mm (1.694" - 1.695") " " " "
Rear.....42.925mm - 42.950mm (1.690" - 1.691") " " " "

Just to add....The Countershaft bearing specifications are the same for a B21 and B230 engine.

As you can see, the factory specs are pretty tight on those bearings.
If I'm gonna go to the trouble to rebuild a B21 engine, I'm gonna make sure that the oil clearances are correct.
Burned bearings are not forgiving.

Just my opinion

Last edited by coalminer; 02-02-2015 at 01:58 PM.. Reason: Removed duplicate information
coalminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 02:18 PM   #24
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

It takes all of 5 minutes to cut some grooves into the journals with a die grinder and a cut off wheel. Just make sure to deburr the grooves. This is what I use on the cam bearings for B18/B20.



FYI, aftermarket cam/intermediate shaft bearings are pre fit, OE are not and require line boring.
hiperfauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2015, 02:04 PM   #25
coalminer
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Georgia Mountains
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post

FYI, aftermarket cam/intermediate shaft bearings are pre fit, OE are not and require line boring.
That's good to know.
What dealer sells pre-finished bearings?
The last time I worked on my rebuild B21 was about 15 years ago, and I couldn't find any pre-finished countershaft bearings.
I'm gonna finish that re-build......sometime.
coalminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.