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Old 07-15-2021, 10:41 AM   #376
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EV West and the company that built that baja truggy used those because they were taking up shelf space at EV West. Not because they were efficient, powerful, or reliable. It was a matter of initial cost and warehouse space. The motors weren't making any monies sitting on a shelf. That's how resellers like EV West work. They sell customers on what they can't move elsewhere. A customer that doesn't know what they want or need, and just says "I want XXX horsepower for $$$$" gets the motors that have sat on the shelf for years and are taking up space and will require frequent servicing, not a machine that puts down the same numbers over and over for 100k miles without an oil change, and without fear of insulation breakdown, or changing brushes. There's a reason nobody brings a brushed DC motor to SEMA.

There are good reasons that forklifts use them. But just like the automotive industry, Toyota doesn't look at a forklift design and say "that"s a money maker right there", they say "ok, great idea, now re-design it to require $$$/year of service so we can actually make money", no dealer will sell units that they cant sell service for. Initial sales margin is tiny compared to service margins. Those motor do produce solid amounts of torque to a degree for a given voltage and amperage, and at those levels they are adequate for the purpose, but long term at high voltage and high current kills them pretty fast.

I'd love to see an M47 take that *750* ftlbs of torque. That'd be fun. I'd also like to see hub dyno graphs of those warp 9s. Motors are one thing but your missing the fact that you need to get that power through a geartrain. 90% of gearboxes are designed to see and cope with peak torque for a fractions of seconds, if that. That tesla unit is designed and capable of holding that torque for minutes-hours continuous.

Also, the EV west tesla unit comes with axles that fit into many different subframes, or hell, spend another few hundred and get the tesla subframe. If you're going to get into a EV conversion of any kind, you should probably know how to weld (or know a guy who works for beer) and you should probably have a good understanding of chassis dynamics and where to put your weight, and how to work your geometry in your favor. Personally, modifying a chassis (that you already have) to accept a 4 bolt subframe that already has all of its geometry worked out seems like a no brainer. The benefits outweigh the hack jobbery of producing a stick axle EV with a grenade sitting 6 inches from your R knee.

Its obvious that you have a very narrow scope here, and have never actually built a car or conversion of any sort.
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Old 07-15-2021, 02:04 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
EV West and the company that built that baja truggy used those because they were taking up shelf space at EV West. Not because they were efficient, powerful, or reliable. It was a matter of initial cost and warehouse space. The motors weren't making any monies sitting on a shelf. That's how resellers like EV West work. They sell customers on what they can't move elsewhere. A customer that doesn't know what they want or need, and just says "I want XXX horsepower for $$$$" gets the motors that have sat on the shelf for years and are taking up space and will require frequent servicing, not a machine that puts down the same numbers over and over for 100k miles without an oil change, and without fear of insulation breakdown, or changing brushes. There's a reason nobody brings a brushed DC motor to SEMA.

There are good reasons that forklifts use them. But just like the automotive industry, Toyota doesn't look at a forklift design and say "that"s a money maker right there", they say "ok, great idea, now re-design it to require $$$/year of service so we can actually make money", no dealer will sell units that they cant sell service for. Initial sales margin is tiny compared to service margins. Those motor do produce solid amounts of torque to a degree for a given voltage and amperage, and at those levels they are adequate for the purpose, but long term at high voltage and high current kills them pretty fast.

I'd love to see an M47 take that *750* ftlbs of torque. That'd be fun. I'd also like to see hub dyno graphs of those warp 9s. Motors are one thing but your missing the fact that you need to get that power through a geartrain. 90% of gearboxes are designed to see and cope with peak torque for a fractions of seconds, if that. That tesla unit is designed and capable of holding that torque for minutes-hours continuous.

Also, the EV west tesla unit comes with axles that fit into many different subframes, or hell, spend another few hundred and get the tesla subframe. If you're going to get into a EV conversion of any kind, you should probably know how to weld (or know a guy who works for beer) and you should probably have a good understanding of chassis dynamics and where to put your weight, and how to work your geometry in your favor. Personally, modifying a chassis (that you already have) to accept a 4 bolt subframe that already has all of its geometry worked out seems like a no brainer. The benefits outweigh the hack jobbery of producing a stick axle EV with a grenade sitting 6 inches from your R knee.

Its obvious that you have a very narrow scope here, and have never actually built a car or conversion of any sort.

Who said it had to be an M47 since we already accommodated to swap a better gear box in a RWD volvo. No real guess work there and RWD volvos owners are very familiar with those swaps

Your numbers were still wrong but then it comes to what an M47 can do with 750 foot pound which was 225 according to you. At your metric ...You have even a narrower scope about inverters and motor design because you've never designed or built one of them. You dont even know how to wind one. Uve assembled someone else creations and a robot program by engineers did the windings. I asked you what this is in the photo but your answer was how many foot pounds a warp 9 made....

Arguments wont make the price go down. "EV west used the warps cos they needed to get them off the shelf.' Okay but You see more warp conversions than youll see teslas in RWD cars. So evidently your ev experience doesn't span very far outside of what Cascadia does. No company that knew an article would be written highlighting their work would supply the user with their "trash".

I will share with you what you are looking at because you still provided no answer about the motor design tool. Here's a hint its a very useful tool for the manufacture of motors using rare earth. Right now you are here specifically making statement about two potential motors for the power in an EV. The numbers you stated for the two warps is already incorrect by about 500 ft pounds sir.


So take another shot at what it is.

Companies use series wound motor in fork lifts for the same reason companies use them for starting large engines. THE PULLOUT TORQUE. The starter in ya car is a series wound brushed motor sir put there for just that reason. Nothing done here in any regard will end up at SEMA.

Last edited by hk 40; 07-16-2021 at 08:57 AM..
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Old 07-16-2021, 09:06 AM   #378
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This is a 2 shot magnetizer . U magnetize the rare earth AFTER assembly. The rotor index wheel is the pole discriminator. This is also useful for segmented pm sections which localizes eddy current in the pm structure or rotors magnets if you will. This is also the way to make assembly of a large PMAC or BLDC . You build a rig like like this then you dont have to run pm less induction machines because you can build PMAC or BLDC safely now. That has more power and torque density than a IM or SRM. Ill put a bldc the size of a warp 9 up against any telsa s powerplant.

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Old 07-16-2021, 05:57 PM   #379
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I haven't kept up with this thread but, as a point of reference, this showed up on the local craigslist yesterday:

Netgain WarP 9 DC Motor for Electric Vehicle (EV) - $200 (Longmont CO)
https://boulder.craigslist.org/pts/d...351224470.html

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I bought this from EVWest, a professional electric car converter. It was used and I planned to put it into my project but the project went a different direction and now I want to get rid of it.

I spent about $650 on it. If interested, hit me up. I also have a mean Motor Controller that I'm selling: a Zilla 1K.
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Old 07-16-2021, 07:28 PM   #380
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I haven't kept up with this thread but, as a point of reference, this showed up on the local craigslist yesterday:

Netgain WarP 9 DC Motor for Electric Vehicle (EV) - $200 (Longmont CO)
https://boulder.craigslist.org/pts/d...351224470.html
I'm not up to speed on motor technology, but that seems really cheap.
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:23 PM   #381
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I'm not up to speed on motor technology, but that seems really cheap.
It's a giant brushed DC motor. It's definitely cheap enough to start a TB EV. But it's doing a blow-thru + T from a technology perspective.
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:25 PM   #382
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It's a giant brushed DC motor. It's definitely cheap enough to start a TB EV. But it's doing a blow-thru + T from a technology perspective.
Add methanol injection to keep it cool?
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:34 PM   #383
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Add methanol injection to keep it cool?
Just spray it. Nitrous is always the answer.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:39 PM   #384
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I realized that if I still had my VW Manx [style] dune buggy, that this motor and controller would be in my garage already. I'd think the Manx would be a near perfect candidate for this setup -- light weight, hang the motor off a simple transaxle adapter plate in place of the engine, replace the front gas tank with a battery pack, and it already has manual steering, fat rear tires, no heat and no A/C. As Summertime toy car, 40 mile range would be good enough, and I guess I could always cart around a gas generator if I didn't know how long/far I'd be playing in the mountains.


How does the sustained power of a used Warp 9 compare to an original NA redblock? Enough for a run-of-the-mill DD?
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:05 PM   #385
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I realized that if I still had my VW Manx [style] dune buggy, that this motor and controller would be in my garage already. I'd think the Manx would be a near perfect candidate for this setup -- light weight, hang the motor off a simple transaxle adapter plate in place of the engine, replace the front gas tank with a battery pack, and it already has manual steering, fat rear tires, no heat and no A/C. As Summertime toy car, 40 mile range would be good enough, and I guess I could always cart around a gas generator if I didn't know how long/far I'd be playing in the mountains.


How does the sustained power of a used Warp 9 compare to an original NA redblock? Enough for a run-of-the-mill DD?
The Warp 9 will feel like a built big turbo redblock from a dig. If you are doing 50+ and floor it, it won't be as impressive, but it will still pull good.

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Old 07-17-2021, 01:00 PM   #386
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I realized that if I still had my VW Manx [style] dune buggy, that this motor and controller would be in my garage already. I'd think the Manx would be a near perfect candidate for this setup -- light weight, hang the motor off a simple transaxle adapter plate in place of the engine, replace the front gas tank with a battery pack, and it already has manual steering, fat rear tires, no heat and no A/C. As Summertime toy car, 40 mile range would be good enough, and I guess I could always cart around a gas generator if I didn't know how long/far I'd be playing in the mountains.


How does the sustained power of a used Warp 9 compare to an original NA redblock? Enough for a run-of-the-mill DD?
Quick from a stand still as HiSPL says. Where it peaks is going to depend on two things. Gearbox and controller voltage and current output.

Like culberro points out, this would be the blow through or suck through carb and turbo setup of the ev world. Known to put down some power, scary to look at, not the most tunable, and not exactly reliable or maintenance free.

But, if you don’t mind long-ish charge times, grab 2-3 Prius hybrid packs for cheap, run them parallel and rock on. Shouldn’t be too difficult to get you that 40 mile range. Could be quick to 60 depending on gearbox. The ev west 2 speed is actually a pretty solid unit. Great thing with that gearbox, if you ever decide you want to throw more money at it, we have a unit that will bolt directly to that transmission, has its own controller/inverter stuck on the top making it a small form factor high output motor. Just need to deal with the pack side of things.
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:09 PM   #387
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I know so little about this stuff ATM and have so much curiosity. This thread sure is interesting.
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:44 PM   #388
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I've actually been starting to consider saving up to get a evshop conversion kit (88kw hyper9 120v) along with 8 phev packs like these:
https://evshop.eu/en/batteries/150-m...ry-module.html

One thing still confuses me however, these packs are listed to be 2.4kw, which would be their total voltage*capacity in ah. However, the minimum to max charge range would be around 22v * 40ah = 0.88kw.

I read that 1kw will net about 5km's (I'd be converting a Volvo 340), so then 8 packs would get me a disappointing 40km range. Or is that range specified in total capacity? I haven't really found a conclusive answere elsewhere
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:12 PM   #389
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That site has "interesting" prices. If you remembered, I posted the weight of the Nissan leaf battery (300kg). I think in https://evshop.eu/en/batteries/163-n...ack-24kwh.html they meant each pack is made of 48 modules each weighting 3.65kg. If that is the case, the Leaf has two packs? Pricy, but I do know someone with a Leaf who said it can do 200miles... not very fast though
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:59 PM   #390
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I've actually been starting to consider saving up to get a evshop conversion kit (88kw hyper9 120v) along with 8 phev packs like these:
https://evshop.eu/en/batteries/150-m...ry-module.html

One thing still confuses me however, these packs are listed to be 2.4kw, which would be their total voltage*capacity in ah. However, the minimum to max charge range would be around 22v * 40ah = 0.88kw.

I read that 1kw will net about 5km's (I'd be converting a Volvo 340), so then 8 packs would get me a disappointing 40km range. Or is that range specified in total capacity? I haven't really found a conclusive answere elsewhere
The Ah rating should take into account the usable voltage range of the battery, so no need to look at the minimum voltage and the Ah rating. It's a little confusing at first, but it starts to make sense as it's a way to standardize the usable energy within a battery.

Without having the cell spec sheet, I don't know if that rating is at 80%DOD or 100%DOD. But it's probably safe to assume that it's 80% @20°C.
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Old 07-19-2021, 07:52 PM   #391
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Yes I already noticed their prices are high, a used outlander phev pack will run 2250€, with 8 packs and some other bits inside. I guess they assume people that just want plug and play and are willing to pay for ease.

Thanks culberro, that makes a lot more sense to me. I was already wondering how else one could get anywhere with a 80kw total capacity pack on a Tesla.

Possibly the oem could provide a DoD value I'd trust. Most batteries only receive 80% of their maximum charge, this is due to pack degradation right?
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:53 PM   #392
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Kind of. Their capacity reduces over time. They will still charge to the same “full” voltage, but will decrease in voltage with use faster.
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Old 07-20-2021, 10:31 AM   #393
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Cool, so basically you charge it to full, and leave some margin at the bottom to prevent overdepletion as it degrades. That makes sense

As for batteries, used 18650's would possibly also be a good option given their cheap if you don't value the spent time, or dare rely on cells tested by someone else. 100pcs come in at 125-150eu, so estimating a rough 3.7V*2.7Ah = 10W for each of those, you could get around 10kw for with the enclosure etc 1500eu. The only downside is figuring out how to fuse each cell individually and building a cooling setup.
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Old 07-20-2021, 12:22 PM   #394
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I realized that if I still had my VW Manx [style] dune buggy, that this motor and controller would be in my garage already. I'd think the Manx would be a near perfect candidate for this setup -- light weight, hang the motor off a simple transaxle adapter plate in place of the engine, replace the front gas tank with a battery pack, and it already has manual steering, fat rear tires, no heat and no A/C. As Summertime toy car, 40 mile range would be good enough, and I guess I could always cart around a gas generator if I didn't know how long/far I'd be playing in the mountains.


How does the sustained power of a used Warp 9 compare to an original NA redblock? Enough for a run-of-the-mill DD?
Swindon had/has an offering if you have $15k

https://paultan.org/2019/10/21/swind...lectric-motor/
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:40 PM   #395
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Wonder if something like this would fit in a 760 IRS chassis:

FS: Tesla Small (~250 - 300hp) Induction Drive Units - Hacked and ready for easy custom EV conversions

Maybe after removing the fuel tank?
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:01 PM   #396
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Looks like it’s just some custom CV shafts and a mounting system away from fitting into an IRS car. You might have to cut up the trunk floor a bit , but that’s not too much work

Those are really cheap for what you’re getting!
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:09 PM   #397
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Oh my.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:17 AM   #398
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https://www.cascadiamotion.com/image...ets/idm190.pdf
^ The new iDM that we are getting close to release, should be ready by the end of the year. Just requires throttle/brake control in either analog or CAN command, DC bus, and cooling loop.

https://www.cascadiamotion.com/image...Sheets/EDM.pdf
^ current offering would require an inverter/controller, DC, cooling, but they're a pretty tight package.

Both of these fit Volvo XC90 axles
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