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Old 07-14-2021, 04:36 PM   #1
fatcatbestcat
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Default Ignition For a Carb'd B230

Hi all.

I haven't bought anything yet, but I wanted to get some opinions or suggestions on what to do ignition-wise with a planned redblock swap. Realistically, the engines I'm looking at are going to be late 80s B230s with skinny rods. I'm not looking for crazy power, and to simplify installation in the planned recipient vehicle, I intend to be running carburetors.

I'm a complete novice when it comes to the OHC engines, so please bear with me.

I'm aware that LH 2.4 engines used some kind of crank sensor running off the flywheel. Would it be advisable to swap a 2.4 flywheel on a 2.2 engine and to use the crank sensor to run some kind of wasted spark setup?

Otherwise, I'm looking at getting a dedicated carb-friendly dizzy from 123ignition or the like. They're a bit pricy but if all I need to do is connect a coil to them, it should make for an easy install.

Also slightly related question; If I were to run a mechanical fuel pump (a la Penta engines), do stock B230Fs still have the eccentric to run the pump, or is there some other idler shaft I need to find?

Probably a bunch of dumb questions, but that's pretty much the norm for me. Any input would be helpful.
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Old 07-14-2021, 04:52 PM   #2
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For $500 you could do a lot better than 123...for instance a microsquirt box powering a VAG wasted spark tower coil running off the crank trigger. You then have a decent box that can control fueling once you wise up.
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Old 07-14-2021, 04:56 PM   #3
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For $500 you could do a lot better than 123...for instance a microsquirt box powering a VAG wasted spark tower coil running off the crank trigger. You then have a decent box that can control fueling once you wise up.
The only reason I want to do carbs is to simplify the electrics in the swap vehicle. I also don't want to have to reconfigure the whole fuel system to make it work.

The swap vehicle didn't have fuel injection to begin with.

EDIT: I totally misread what you meant. If I go the wasted spark route, how much more is there to setup and/or install versus just the old fashioned coil/dizzy deal?
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:13 PM   #4
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/19375397498...gAAOSwnNtfs0QG

Points distributor, then retrofit a Pertronix hei
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:15 PM   #5
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/19375397498...gAAOSwnNtfs0QG

Points distributor, then retrofit a Pertronix hei
Ah, yes. I had such good luck with a used points distributor last time...

Do the redblocks take the Bosch 009 dizzy, or is it totally different from the B20?
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:18 PM   #6
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I'm running exactly what you want to run .
I'm using a modified Penta points distributor (added vacuum advance and converted to pertronix points delete), an MSD Streetfire box, and an LH2.4 coil. Mechanical fuel pump on dual Zenith Strombergs 175CDs currently.

You can totally get away without the MSD box though and just run a coil + ballast. What is the 'base' car? Was it a B21A originally? You mentioned it did not have fuel injection.

If I were you, and I wanted simple...I'd grab this: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Distribu...item21610b73a5


It's a reconditioned points dizzy with a pertronix-style setup already installed. Power and ground, done. There's your ignition . As far as carbs go...the sky is the limit ;).
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:19 PM   #7
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Ah, yes. I had such good luck with a used points distributor last time...

Do the redblocks take the Bosch 009 dizzy, or is it totally different from the B20?
It mounts differently, but the internals are the same. I modded my Volvo penta dizzy with VW parts.

If it wasn't 5 hours, I'd drive down and show you my setup, lol.
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:21 PM   #8
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Carbs can be tolerated because they can be fun. Distributors are a hard no for me.
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:28 PM   #9
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Ah, yes. I had such good luck with a used points distributor last time...
Was the cam lobe or the gear worn out? There's almost nothing that can be wrong with them.
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:35 PM   #10
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Was the cam lobe or the gear worn out? There's almost nothing that can be wrong with them.
The old dizzy I was working with last time had worn out points and I ordered like four different sets (it didn't have a model plate on the side) and none fit. That car was all sorts of hacked, and it's entirely possible it was an old off-brand meant for a VW application or something like that. Ideally I want something new or that was known to have run in the past.

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What is the 'base' car? Was it a B21A originally? You mentioned it did not have fuel injection.
I've been avoiding saying it. D24 car. Carbs and a mechanical pump means I can keep most of the stock diesel fuel system.
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:37 PM   #11
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The 123 unit is really nice, once you figure out the timing maps (they are in distributor RPM, not crank!).

I like the electronic dizzy from the UK, that seems like a decent enough deal for the money.

Used Penta with Pertronics is also a good option, but the vacuum adv would be nice to have. Would be okay with side drafts though!
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Old 07-14-2021, 05:48 PM   #12
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Used Penta with Pertronics is also a good option, but the vacuum adv would be nice to have.
Does vac advance have any practical purpose in a daily? I always thought it was just for emissions.

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Would be okay with side drafts though!
That's the plan long-term. I was going to reuse the SUs from the 144, but I can't find a manifold to take twin SUs for a B230. Very sad. I suppose I'll have to burgle Broke4speed's old twin carb setup.
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by fatcatbestcat View Post
Does vac advance have any practical purpose in a daily? I always thought it was just for emissions.

That's the plan long-term. I was going to reuse the SUs from the 144, but I can't find a manifold to take twin SUs for a B230. Very sad. I suppose I'll have to burgle Broke4speed's old twin carb setup.
In my experience it depends on the CR. Low (stock) CR can definitely benefit. The higher the CR, the less total timing you need.
At higher CR, you might only have 10° of timing change total (this influenced by CR, octane, engine speed, cams, etc).

There's a reason you can get away with running a higher performance motor with the timing locked out around 28-32° adv.

You can get FAJS DCOE carbs and intake from Sherryburg/Aliexpress for about $700. If that's in the budget.
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:49 PM   #14
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In my experience it depends on the CR. Low (stock) CR can definitely benefit. The higher the CR, the less total timing you need.
At higher CR, you might only have 10° of timing change total (this influenced by CR, octane, engine speed, cams, etc).

There's a reason you can get away with running a higher performance motor with the timing locked out around 28-32° adv.
Oh, neat! I learned something today. Thanks!

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You can get FAJS DCOE carbs and intake from Sherryburg/Aliexpress for about $700. If that's in the budget.
I also have a set of those left over from the 144.

Either way, I think that about answers all of my questions. Thanks, all!

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Old 07-14-2021, 07:16 PM   #15
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Vac advance adds a BUNCH of fuel economy too, so it's not just an emissions thing. Most vac advance distributors require ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum, so unless the carbs have a dedicated port, odds are it's the wrong one.

I'm going to be making a downdraft manifold for a 32/36 out of a B21FT intake, as soon as it arrives ;).
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:34 PM   #16
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That's the plan long-term. I was going to reuse the SUs from the 144, but I can't find a manifold to take twin SUs for a B230. Very sad. I suppose I'll have to burgle Broke4speed's old twin carb setup.
iirc the OHC penta redblocks had both single and dual carb intake configurations that show up for sale here and there (ebay mostly)
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Old 07-14-2021, 08:35 PM   #17
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iirc the OHC penta redblocks had both single and dual carb intake configurations that show up for sale here and there (ebay mostly)
Every one I've seen for sale has been for the downdraft boat carbs. I'd want to use sidedrafts.
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Old 07-14-2021, 08:48 PM   #18
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that single is a side-draft but ya youre right; i dunno about a dual OHC sidedraft intake

have you considered a simple fabbing 2 simple 90 degree elbow adapters for the dual downdraft manifold?
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Old 07-14-2021, 08:53 PM   #19
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that single is a side-draft but ya youre right; i dunno about a dual OHC sidedraft intake

have you considered a simple fabbing 2 simple 90 degree elbow adapters for the dual downdraft manifold?
The duals exist...;). That single is a solex-flanged Penta version of the stock B21A (Canadian/Euro) single-carb manifold. The single is no fun at all, I can say for sure. My car was a B21A originally and it was SLOW, even though it's not much faster now.



I had SU/ZS flanges welded on and it's great .

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Old 07-14-2021, 08:55 PM   #20
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have you considered a simple fabbing 2 simple 90 degree elbow adapters for the dual downdraft manifold?
I would consider it if I had a workbench in my garage. Or any space. It's like 6.5ft wide and is usually filled with car.

I might just steal Broke4speed's manifold.
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Old 07-14-2021, 09:19 PM   #21
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I'm back to using it...sorry ;).
The Dellorto sidedrafts were truly garbage, and I want to drive my car again...so I shelved them and dusted off the dual ZS setup. I am trying a different set of carbs though, since I found a nice set off a 1969 144S at the junkyard the other day. So far the needles seem bang on .
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Old 07-14-2021, 09:21 PM   #22
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I'm back to using it...sorry ;).
The Dellorto sidedrafts were truly garbage, and I want to drive my car again...so I shelved them and dusted off the dual ZS setup. I am trying a different set of carbs though, since I found a nice set off a 1969 144S at the junkyard the other day. So far the needles seem bang on .
Getting slightly OT but... what exactly was wrong with them?
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Old 07-14-2021, 09:44 PM   #23
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Why not just use the distributor/electronic ignition from say a B23E? Simple, no points/condensor. Not really adjustable like a 123. But should last forever and easy to find.

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Old 07-14-2021, 09:53 PM   #24
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They were emissions carbs, most Dells are since they're OE from various italian cars in the 70s, and they have different internals to the universal versions (the idle jets feed off the main jet stack instead of from their own well, etc etc). There was a dude on eBay from Italy who converted the emissions units to universal ones, but he doesn't do it anymore...and I think I know why now. The ones I got were some converted ones, and they were eye-bleedingly rich no matter what I did. I feel this is because the emissions carbs used very specific jets/emulsion tubes/etc, and don't react well to the conversion. It would have been fine if I didn't have a wideband to show me exactly how rich they were, but the extra precision of modern carb tuning methods illustrated that they were designed to be rich at all times, whereas the emission carbs were actually very nice to drive and not overly rich at all.

I've had both emissions and universal dells, and neither of them failed to react to jet changes or mixture screw adjustments like these nasty converted ones :(.
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Old 07-14-2021, 10:43 PM   #25
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I might have missed it
Can you not use the 230 fuel injection harness etc

Some of those Chinese dcoe may work for a while, but not compared to a few hundred dollars more for proper Spanish 151 45’s. I think changing the intake is doable on the cheap.

123 for sure gives flexibility. But now your close to $1200

So why not stock 230 fi
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