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Old 07-25-2016, 05:05 AM   #1
DrZiplok
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Default Best race pads for stock 240 calipers? EBC? Hawk?

Doing prep for next week's LeMons round at Thunderhill, and it looks like we ate a set of EBC YellowStuff pads in about a day.

Still running stock calipers / rotors, but these guys were hot enough to blister the paint off the backing plates, and definitely not going to get a whole weekend out of a set.

Any thoughts on Hawk Blues for longevity? Not going to be any cheaper than two sets of Yellows, but perhaps less hassle?

I suspect the default answer is going to be to upgrade the whole brake setup... But we like our ABS...
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:07 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by DrZiplok View Post
Doing prep for next week's LeMons round at Thunderhill, and it looks like we ate a set of EBC YellowStuff pads in about a day.

Still running stock calipers / rotors, but these guys were hot enough to blister the paint off the backing plates, and definitely not going to get a whole weekend out of a set.

Any thoughts on Hawk Blues for longevity? Not going to be any cheaper than two sets of Yellows, but perhaps less hassle?

I suspect the default answer is going to be to upgrade the whole brake setup... But we like our ABS...
You could still run better calipers and retain ABS. Maybe a set of rx7 calipers would work best for you. They are aluminum so they would act as a nice heat sink for your pads to keep them a bit cooler.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:56 AM   #3
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about backing plates: get rid of them, for better cooling. On a dedicated racecar you don't need them.
( if the rear plates are used as mounting plates for the handbrake you can cut them down to size to expose the friction surface of the disk only)
Use open spoked rims to allow for optimal cooling.

IMO Yellow stuff is not suitable for endurance racing in a heavy-ish car like a 240 (or 740/940), better try Orange stuff pads.

What you should be looking at when examining/evaluating a used pad are cracks, evidence of burning, severe unregular erosion of the friction material. see example

If this is the case you are using the wrong friction matrial. If the pads are wearing evenly without cracks without burning they are up to the job. (mind you, regardless of the speed at which they wear! suitability and wearrate are 2 different things! prepare to switch pads during pitstops. Even the real LeMans WEC-teams change their pads during LM24. It takes 2 trained mechanics about 5 to 10 min to change front brake pads. When you use heat resistant gloves it is not hard to do.

I have seen OEM Volvo brake systems being used in rally (stock engine, stock car weight, streetlegal radial tires)
IMO the rotors are not the problem, it is all in the prepping (fluid, bleeding, cooling, correct pads)
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:05 PM   #4
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But we like our ABS...
You like worse stopping distances?
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:30 PM   #5
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I was using them with much larger disc/calipers [S60R] but I really liked my Porterfield R4's. They are a tad noisy, but the first set lasted 4 races and 1500+ race miles. Pretty good IMO. They still had some meat left on them too, only replaced them because the car will have more power the next race.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:30 PM   #6
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nothing wrong w/ 240 ABS.

Try something like a HAWK HP Plus

http://www.kaplhenke.com/collections...lus-brake-pads

We run Pagid RS29s on our lemons car. They are awesome and last forever but are very $$$$
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:06 PM   #7
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Agree that the 240 ABS seems to work just fine, which is why we want to keep it. In particular, it helps prevent the back from coming around under heavy braking (yes, we could **** around with adjustable brake bias, but I don't quite feel like changing it every couple of corners over a 2+ hour stint, when the computer will do it for me...)

Messing around with master cylinders to push bigger calipers seems like a recipe for making the ABS unhappy, so not quite ready for that yet.

Ben, would you really consider the HP+ a step up from the YellowStuff? Everything I've seen suggests they go to hell when they get hot, and as you can see, we're currently running a bit hot. Looks like heat management should be our #1 priority.

I was also interested to see how much caliper flex we're getting on the fronts. I guess this is the price of going faster.



Last edited by DrZiplok; 07-25-2016 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #8
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Brakes slow you down by creating a metric f-ton of heat. Fancy pads and brake fluid just work better at higher temps. If you're brakes are getting that hot but you like the braking power try adding some ghetto cooling ducts, larger rotors, or aluminum calipers.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DrZiplok View Post
Agree that the 240 ABS seems to work just fine, which is why we want to keep it. In particular, it helps prevent the back from coming around under heavy braking (yes, we could **** around with adjustable brake bias, but I don't quite feel like changing it every couple of corners over a 2+ hour stint, when the computer will do it for me...)

Messing around with master cylinders to push bigger calipers seems like a recipe for making the ABS unhappy, so not quite ready for that yet.

Ben, would you really consider the HP+ a step up from the YellowStuff? Everything I've seen suggests they go to hell when they get hot, and as you can see, we're currently running a bit hot. Looks like heat management should be our #1 priority.

I was also interested to see how much caliper flex we're getting on the fronts. I guess this is the price of going faster.
It is doubtful you would have a problem with the rx7 calipers. I don't think they require any master upgrade and the ABS works off of wheel speeds sensors so the system doesn't care what the stoppers are.

I have auto-x several cars with abs and upgraded calipers and the abs worked just fine.

The problem would be fitting wheels unless you already run 16" wheels.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:38 PM   #10
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I used PBR XBGs (used to be called metal masters) in our LeMons car until we got Porterfield to custom make us a set of pads with raybestos racing friction material. Both of those options have been great. The PBRs would last about a weekend and we'd come in metal-to-metal on sunday afternoon. The Raybestos have lasted several races without significant wear. I changed the discs under them once already.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:42 PM   #11
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it helps prevent the back from coming around under heavy braking
Lower the back end more. It should be a hair lower than the front.
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Old 07-25-2016, 03:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Brakes slow you down by creating a metric f-ton of heat. Fancy pads and brake fluid just work better at higher temps. If you're brakes are getting that hot but you like the braking power try adding some ghetto cooling ducts, larger rotors, or aluminum calipers.
What this guy said.

In Lemons and track days, I run a 260E Mercedes (a little bit bigger than a 240) on stock calipers with Porterfield pads with 3" ducting aimed right at the rotor and caliper. We cut a hole in the backing plate/dust shield and welded in a piece of exhaust tubing to attach the ducting too. Then cut the ducting to accommodate for lock-to-lock wheel position and ran it to the front air dam. To help guide the air, we also built a splitter for the front end which seems to help guide even more air through the ducting. The only time the brakes failed us is when the splitter/air dam got mangled. Keep the stock calipers, they'll work fine until you start adding more weight.
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Old 07-25-2016, 03:16 PM   #13
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The RX7 caliper thing was invented in my garage for Kevin Hawkinsons 240 for gravel use and before we know the ABS calipers were "normal" one hose in and we were primarily interested in losing some weight but also simplifying the plumbing and bleeding procedures.

We thought the much reduced piston area of 4 x 36mm vs stock 1.5"/38mm would be OK for gravel... (edit for clumsy fingers)

We were wrong.

I would not advise anybody to reduce front brake piston area by roughly 11%.--Not for asphalt.

I have heard nothing but praise from guys using Porterfields and of course that is for rally cars on gravel which because of the lower average speeds (less air cooling) and especially the lower cornering speeds and frequency of turns puts a MUCH larger load on brakes. They say they work even when discs are glowing orange and they are kind to the rotors relatively speaking.
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Last edited by John V, outside agitator; 07-25-2016 at 07:00 PM..
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Old 07-25-2016, 03:42 PM   #14
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If you are staying with stock rotors and callipers then Hawk blues will handle the heat, get rid of the back shield and route a 3" duct to as close as you can get to the centre of the rotor. But ultimately an upgrade to the larger 740 rotors and Mazda callipers and a F/R adjustable portioning valve will give you one of the best braking cars in Lemons and Chump, great feel and will last.
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
The RX7 caliper thing was invented in my garage for Kevin Hawkinsons 240 for gravel use and before we know the ABS calipers were "normal" one hose in and we were primarily interested in losing some weight but also simplifying the plumbing and bleeding procedures.

We thought the much reduced piston area of 4 x 1.375/35mm vs stock 1.5"/38mm would be OK for gravel...

We were wrong.

I would not advise anybody to reduce front brake piston area by roughly 18%.

I have heard nothing but praise from guys using Porterfields and of course that is for rally cars on gravel which because of the lower average speeds (less air cooling) and especially the lower cornering speeds and frequency of turns puts a MUCH larger load on brakes. They say they work even when discs are glowing orange and they are kind to the rotors relatively speaking.
Well fawk...

Also, Hawk HP+ or R pads depending on the track, power, and weight of your car.
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
The RX7 caliper thing was invented in my garage for Kevin Hawkinsons 240 for gravel use and before we know the ABS calipers were "normal" one hose in and we were primarily interested in losing some weight but also simplifying the plumbing and bleeding procedures.

We thought the much reduced piston area of 4 x 1.375/35mm vs stock 1.5"/38mm would be OK for gravel...

We were wrong.

I would not advise anybody to reduce front brake piston area by roughly 18%.

I have heard nothing but praise from guys using Porterfields and of course that is for rally cars on gravel which because of the lower average speeds (less air cooling) and especially the lower cornering speeds and frequency of turns puts a MUCH larger load on brakes. They say they work even when discs are glowing orange and they are kind to the rotors relatively speaking.
I used to think the rx7 kit was done with stock rotors, but they use a 940 rotor that's a larger diameter. I think the difference in braking power works out to be less than 5%.

Edit: Did some quick research and some maths.
RX7 brake swap uses 940 rotors with a diameter of 280mm, stock 240 is 263mm. RX7 calipers use a 36mm piston, Volvo a 38mm.
Total decrease in braking power with RX7 calipers (using same pad coefficient of friction and line pressure, and force happening 20mm in from the OD) would be 3.5%.

Last edited by culberro; 07-25-2016 at 04:44 PM.. Reason: Did some maths
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:16 PM   #17
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I can deal with the decrease in braking power, as it's plenty to lock up my fronts at high speed. The key here is having extra rotor and pad area, plust better conductivity of aluminum to keep the brakes cool, as I do occasionally cook the stockers.
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
I used to think the rx7 kit was done with stock rotors, but they use a 940 rotor that's a larger diameter. I think the difference in braking power works out to be less than 5%.

Edit: Did some quick research and some maths.
RX7 brake swap uses 940 rotors with a diameter of 280mm, stock 240 is 263mm. RX7 calipers use a 36mm piston, Volvo a 38mm.
Total decrease in braking power with RX7 calipers (using same pad coefficient of friction and line pressure, and force happening 20mm in from the OD) would be 3.5%.
They? The they was me and Kevin supplying the parts snce he was working at Northern European at the time.
I said to Kevin "get the largest diameter 740 rotors..They're a little thinner. and we can cheat and cram 'em in"
Kevin asked "What year?"
I cuffed him with the back of my hand then he got a return open handed slap...what year...pfft

You can do your usual extremely poor research and you can waste time assuming things, but they would not lock the fronts AT ALL on hard surface with loose gravel on top

..and that is easy with any car..

Not acceptable.
.Booster a must, but turbo car make boost not vacuum.

The original adaptors were made from scrap aluminum laying in the corner---I posted the thickness and the step and several greedy "vendors" started making expensive copies with some CNC script and selling the $5 worth of material for $125.
Surprised you didn't jump in and figure a way to make them more complicated and expensive.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:40 PM   #19
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From talking to one of the chemists at EBC he suggested that a race car would at least need redstuff pads for track use. He said the yellowstuff was more low brake demanding motorsport use and not a pad he would often recomend
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:41 PM   #20
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Just a quick thanks to all the folks contributing - we've taken all your advice onboard, and hopefully we'll have a chance to benefit from it, if not this weekend then before the next round at Buttonwillow.

A few questions in case you want to continue...

- Lowering the rear - seems like a can of worms; new springs, shocks (or do the Koni yellows go far enough?), cut bump stops, adjustable torque rods. Probably worth it, but non-trivial to do it properly (and I can't weld worth a damn, so just cutting the stock tubes is a non-starter, and bending them to shorten is probably also a bad idea...

- HP+ seem like a bad idea from the high temperature fade perspective. Don't see HP-R or any Porterfields in D43 sizing, let alone the rears (which look like D44s but marginally smaller, perhaps more like a D62?) Any specific part numbers recommended here?

For the curious - https://www.flickr.com/photos/telsta...57668423290362
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:42 PM   #21
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From talking to one of the chemists at EBC he suggested that a race car would at least need redstuff pads for track use. He said the yellowstuff was more low brake demanding motorsport use and not a pad he would often recomend
Weird. They advertise RedStuff as a street pad...
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZiplok View Post
Just a quick thanks to all the folks contributing - we've taken all your advice onboard, and hopefully we'll have a chance to benefit from it, if not this weekend then before the next round at Buttonwillow.

A few questions in case you want to continue...

- Lowering the rear - seems like a can of worms; new springs, shocks (or do the Koni yellows go far enough?), cut bump stops, adjustable torque rods. Probably worth it, but non-trivial to do it properly (and I can't weld worth a damn, so just cutting the stock tubes is a non-starter, and bending them to shorten is probably also a bad idea...

- HP+ seem like a bad idea from the high temperature fade perspective. Don't see HP-R or any Porterfields in D43 sizing, let alone the rears (which look like D44s but marginally smaller, perhaps more like a D62?) Any specific part numbers recommended here?

For the curious - https://www.flickr.com/photos/telsta...57668423290362
I think you must telephone Porterfield...remember those things?
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:16 PM   #23
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Weird. They advertise RedStuff as a street pad...
My wife's car uses redstuff pads. They are more than definitely for street compound as they outgas like crazy with minimal effort.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZiplok View Post
Just a quick thanks to all the folks contributing - we've taken all your advice onboard, and hopefully we'll have a chance to benefit from it, if not this weekend then before the next round at Buttonwillow.

A few questions in case you want to continue...

- Lowering the rear - seems like a can of worms; new springs, shocks (or do the Koni yellows go far enough?), cut bump stops, adjustable torque rods. Probably worth it, but non-trivial to do it properly (and I can't weld worth a damn, so just cutting the stock tubes is a non-starter, and bending them to shorten is probably also a bad idea...

- HP+ seem like a bad idea from the high temperature fade perspective. Don't see HP-R or any Porterfields in D43 sizing, let alone the rears (which look like D44s but marginally smaller, perhaps more like a D62?) Any specific part numbers recommended here?

For the curious - https://www.flickr.com/photos/telsta...57668423290362
Lowering the rear: not difficult; just make sure your pinion angle is correct. Standard length shocks can go a long way down and your gain in dynamic caster is well-worth the effort

As for pics: what BMW thingie is that there?
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:25 PM   #25
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Their online catalog sucks. Search GD549 for Porterfields compounds for 240 front pads.
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