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Old 05-11-2021, 07:43 PM   #1
hk 40
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Default Has anyone ever had luck with the Grey motorcraft TFI

These thick film ignitions should work without dwell mapping with an ECU using hall dizzy or cam and crank hall sensors. I've seen them in MS notes but haven't seen anyone here use them I guess because the ezk tuners and ms can map dwell they would have no need and can run dumb ignitors? They make a mappable version as well but im speaking of the closed looped capable ones.

Regards,
Hubert
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assuming we have an electrical circuit containing a power source and a solenoid of inductance L , we can write the equation of magnetic energy, E , stored in the inductor as: E = 1/2 * L * I² , where I is the current flowing through the wire

I have an ecu which has 8 channels of full sequential fuel and ignition control .

Last edited by hk 40; 05-13-2021 at 11:13 AM.. Reason: clear up possible misunderstanding from bad wording on my part
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Old 05-11-2021, 08:03 PM   #2
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If they’re anything like the early ones, they are unreliable pieces of trash.
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Old 05-13-2021, 10:36 AM   #3
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They've been very reliable in the fords from what Im reading. + 15 years life is acceptable IMHO. Have you ever used the grey one posted here?

1. Closed loop ignition module

Common ignition modules such as the Bosch BIM 137 (008), BIM 024 (021) units and Ford TFI have sophisticated closed loop control of dwell. These modules monitor the coil current and adjust the dwell to ensure the target level is always reached - about 7 amps is usual. This approach caters for varying RPM, temperature, voltage, coil tolerances, etc.

Should the current rise above the target, then the module’s transistor will partially turn off to limit the current. When viewing the current trace, this can be seen as a ‘flat’ section on the top of the pulse.

This graph shows shows BIM 024 current limiting, normal at low RPM.

These modules are often used in aftermarket applications as they are very simple to set up (no dwell mapping required) and are readily available. They are a good choice if your ECU has limited control ability or you lack the coil dwell data or equipment you need to test the requirements yourself.

When using closed loop ignition modules:

Use coils that are compatible with the module (eg Bosch BIM 137 module works well with Bosch HEC715 or HEC716 coil).

Do not use an inductive sensor triggered type modules (like BIM 024) with your ECU. Internally, these modules use the slope of the sensor input signal in their dwell setting process and if triggered with a square wave, they will not have dwell control available. Only use modules from Hall Effect systems (eg BIM 137).

The Hall Effect triggered module type internally converts the square wave input signal (from your ECU now) into a saw tooth voltage and uses this new sloping signal in their dwell setting process. The amount they can adjust their dwell will be restricted If you do not give them a long enough pulse.

The downsides of using full closed loop ignition modules in an aftermarket system are that:

You can’t alter the coil current limit if your application requires this.

Dwell control at very low coil firing rates (eg an engine with one coil/module per cylinder at idle speed) may be outside its ability and so dwell is often way too long. Coil destruction results. The solution may be an aftermarket alternative such as those from M&W ignitions.

Expensive if you need multiple units (eg an engine with one coil/module per cylinder)
~autospeed~

The ones that would worked closed loop are actually the early ones. The later which are black are made for mapped dwell so if you run them closed loop with hall sensors with a ECU that does not map dwell they will not work correctly. Like anything else there are always pros and cons. Erstwhile a misunderstanding from my horrible wording and unclear explanations may have created the short returns. The model number on the one posted If I can see is E7DF-12A297A1A 8W19A. Itz really not all that clear in the photo to me so the number may not be correct.



Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 11:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
They've been very reliable in the fords from what Im reading. + 15 years life is acceptable IMHO. Have you ever used the grey one posted here?
I've used the gray TFI that don't have the giant heat sink. I've been through 2 OEM ones, and a bunch of aftermarket replacements.

They do not like getting hot. It's on a v8 drift car, they heat soak, and then they die.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
I've used the gray TFI that don't have the giant heat sink. I've been through 2 OEM ones, and a bunch of aftermarket replacements.

They do not like getting hot. It's on a v8 drift car, they heat soak, and then they die.
Thanks for this Culberro. If the car is a turbo? How much boost did the ignition support?

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 01:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Thanks for this Culberro. If the car is a turbo? How much boost did the ignition support?

Regards
Hubert
Not turbo, but NA V8. 10.4:1 Cr, aluminum heads, 295deg cam with around 14mm of lift. It needs more CR or a smaller cam, but it's fun and really reliable.

The ignition has no problem firing over a 0.045" plug gap at 7300 rpm. So I think it's been fine. Like I said, the biggest issue has been heat. If you can remote mount the TFI away from the engine, that would probable be fine.
On the 80/90s cars, the TFI is mounted on the distributor and has heat issues.
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Old 05-13-2021, 01:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Not turbo, but NA V8. 10.4:1 Cr, aluminum heads, 295deg cam with around 14mm of lift. It needs more CR or a smaller cam, but it's fun and really reliable.

The ignition has no problem firing over a 0.045" plug gap at 7300 rpm. So I think it's been fine. Like I said, the biggest issue has been heat. If you can remote mount the TFI away from the engine, that would probable be fine.
On the 80/90s cars, the TFI is mounted on the distributor and has heat issues.
Yes sir what you say is quite accurate. I wonder could they be used in wasted spark dless setup or would that induce the before mention dwell at idle issues with 1 coil/module per cylinder setup. I think that issue may be more prominent with BIM137's. This is also important. Who is supplying you with the aftermarkets for the closed loop version and what is the correct model number you come up with?

Regards,
Hubert

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Old 05-13-2021, 01:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Yes sir what you say is quite accurate. I wonder could they be used in wasted spark dless setup or would that induce the before mention dwell at idle issues with 1 coil/module per cylinder setup. I think that issue may be more prominent with BIM137's. This is also important. Who is supplying you with the aftermarkets for the closed loop version and what is the correct model number you come up with?

Regards,
Hubert
I have used the more expensive Standard Motor Products TFI, and that one seems to be doing the best so far.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...ule+(icm),7172

I guess a question for you:
What are you trying to accomplish?
4cyl individual coil control? Wasted spark coil control?

There are a lot of easier, better, and cheaper solutions. The TFI's only benefit is that it has a signal pickup and conditioner built into it, but I'm not sure how well it would work with non-OE sensors.
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Old 05-13-2021, 02:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
I have used the more expensive Standard Motor Products TFI, and that one seems to be doing the best so far.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...ule+(icm),7172

I guess a question for you:
What are you trying to accomplish?
4cyl individual coil control? Wasted spark coil control?

There are a lot of easier, better, and cheaper solutions. The TFI's only benefit is that it has a signal pickup and conditioner built into it, but I'm not sure how well it would work with non-OE sensors.
Either. It is a bit more to it since It is a hall sensor module and it controls dwell. That's why im looking at it. The filter on the push start module is a 22 kohm resistor that comes off the coil negative and feeds pin 4 of the factory EEC-IV ECU. AFAIK it monitors this circuit to verify a coil firing for each PIP signal. If its erratic firing the ECU will kick a code.

Autronic sequential 3D SMC ECU's dont control dwell without and additional 470.00 dollar dwell board installed. I already purchased a CDI 500R 4 channel DFI for one car but I don't want to buy another at nearly 1000 dollars to set up another car I doubt its more expensive than that, but I truly dunno.
The TFI uses a hall effect sensor in the distributor which generates a 12 volt square wave at 50% duty cycle it is called the PIP to the ecu and TFI The ecu processed it and sends another battery voltage 50% duty cycle square wave "SPOUT" to the TFI module. As long as the TFI receives SPOUT it will fire the coil at the rising edge of that signal (except during cranking when spout is ignored during cranking via pin 4 on the module connector.) The start signal pin the will disable spout when it receives signal from the starter relay trigger. The vehicle will run with the amount of timing advance commanded by the ECU. If the TFI module doesn't receive the SPOUT signal it will fire the coil at the PIP signal and the vehicle should run at base timing.

What I need is a 4 channel direct fire ignition that doesn't sink the bank and works correctly but I can run d-less wasted spark with a pair of obsolete Bosch smart modules. The key to using OEM modules with this aftermarket ECU is it has to control dwell itself and be hall based. if the motor craft TFI will run a double ended coil pack wasted spark can be achieved with 2 modules. One module firing 1 and 4 and the other firing 2 and 3. The ECU's Ignition O/P 1 and O/P 2 would feed SPOUT on module 1 and module 2 respectively. All the other wiring will be basically parallel and typical. The aftermarket ECU will handle the timing and ignition advance from the crank and cam triggers or a CAS or dual sync distributor which is the manipulated pass through from the ECU's cylinder pulse trigger and reference trigger which is fed by their halls, the same thang.

Regards
Hubert,

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Old 05-13-2021, 09:09 PM   #10
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This would be the basic wiring from the TFI modules to the SMC. If it worked and a pair cost me 100.00 bucks I'd say with nothing left but a pair of double ended coils to buy I scored savings and got an ignition that will support my needs. The remote modules would easily mount on the factory 240 ignition bracket on a under heat sink on stand offs.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-16-2021, 07:18 AM   #11
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Ive spoken with Joe Beninca at Beninca motors and showed him the Bosch BIM 137 which is supposed to be closed loop should work. What I need to know is what is the appropriate double ended coil pack that's compatible. I also shared this TFI information and he's having a look. I will report back but this thing should work also with MS. If it has two ignition OP's then it may be able to set up dles wasted spark. This thing should def works with cas or other dual sync distributor heads etc. He's been very helpful to me. Seems like a good connection to have.


Beninca Motors Joe Beninca
581 Canterbury Road
Surrey Hills 3127 Vic
Tel: 03 98361519
Email: info@beninca.com.au
Web: www.beninca.com.au

Regards
Hubert
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:28 AM   #12
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Does anyone have any real specs on it or have a link with the real meat on most of the Bosch ignition modules?

http://www.mrm-racing.se/forum/forum...coil-selection

Based on the problems stated here I think the TFI pin "4" is sounding even more appropriate to work when they mention "cranking dwell" read through the thread. Its fairly short with a frustrating and abrupt end.....

Thanks for you time and patience,
Hubert
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Not turbo, but NA V8. 10.4:1 Cr, aluminum heads, 295deg cam with around 14mm of lift. It needs more CR or a smaller cam, but it's fun and really reliable.

The ignition has no problem firing over a 0.045" plug gap at 7300 rpm. So I think it's been fine. Like I said, the biggest issue has been heat. If you can remote mount the TFI away from the engine, that would probable be fine.
On the 80/90s cars, the TFI is mounted on the distributor and has heat issues.
Hi Culberro,
Joe contacted me and makes a point about the compression at the spark you have as compared to a heavily boosted high revving engine. I never told him your was low. He came to that on his own. He threw this at me. 7800 rpm x 4 / 60 = 520 hz = 1.923 msec so from that there may not be adequate time . Looks like I can try it but from the posted V8 numbers we have no really good news. The CDI is gonna be the best ticket for high compression high revving engine. Damn I don't wanna go there again. However he does think the BIM137 has a chance. I guess that's worth a try.


Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-18-2021, 08:48 AM   #14
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Wow 7oo hundred views of the TFI with only Culberro's kind input. Is Culberro the only other one currently on board that has worked with or even looked at other ignitions outside the EZK and dumb ignitors?

Stellar !

Regards
Hubert
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:18 AM   #15
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I've never had much luck finding good Bosch datasheets for 30+ year old parts. From an old ausrotary.com post, here's the best I have on the recommended coil to go with the 137 module:
Quote:
officially,, when new,, the factory numbers are --
BOSCH HEC 715/716 == 0.41 ohm primary,, 7.8K ohm secondary ,, 7.5 amps at 3.5 ms and 13.5 V
You could certainly try running 2 137 modules, or 2 TFIs, but those style parts were only used for a short period just before EFI became fully computerized. If you try dual modules, make sure they're from the same general production era -- I've noticed that the newer Bosch 124 modules now have some sort of over-current protection, but the original 124's don't.

I don't know what MSD offers for wasted spark boxes, but a couple CDI boxes should also work. As an expensive option, you could probably run a MicroSquirt as a dumb spark-only dwell-only ignition box.
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:44 AM   #16
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Hi bobxyz,
Thanks for your input. Unfortunately The 124's are no good in this application without ecu dwell control. The point to the tfi and 137 is they have closed loop dwell control and the run off hall triggers. The CDI DFI is my best option I just didnt want to lug the cost. Ive looked at the MSD dless but it isnt too cheap either and I've heard MSD described as m.ysterious s.park d.isappearance Maybe thats just haters. As I remember the MSD 6AL with BTM wasn't that awful. They run high performance v8 here in nc very well....The thing about CDI ignitions is they are ready to fire at any time it doesn't need to build up a charge. The TFI's have to be the right ones as well. They have several versions. One of which the dwell has to be controlled by the ECU . That's not the one id be after, but either model should work with a megasquirt since it can control dwell. The ford edis was another interesting idea but Im not well read on it. Please forgive me as I really didn't want to get into all that and offend anyone that uses them as I truly have no issue with megasquirt. In my mind its honestly a great bargain, but I shouldn't have to be excluded here because I run something I feel is a little better. That's not at all fair. But itz all good. I have lots to offer to this board, and wanted to do that through participation in threads but they do not want it from ME which is fine. I don't fit their internal stereotypical image of intelligence. Im used to that.... If my name was HANZ or HELMUT and I looked like them it would be all good. Id be highly regarded for my knowledge. And no everyone isnt that way but there is certainly people on this board that are. Over the last 18 years I've seen many questionable post I found offensive but I don't have time to argue i just put a asterisk beside those profiles and avoid them at all cost. For 7 at least years I sat here and watched the kids play. When is it time for some of the older guys get to show what they have done in all this time watching others slap themselves on the back.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-19-2021, 12:08 PM   #17
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Seems like a DAC or something similar could work with a BIM024 using a hall trigger but Im just brainstorming because its actually uses a saw wave to time dwell versus a true sinus signal. The would be the opposite of most of the VR to square outputs circuits I've observed. From what I can tell the TFI should mate with a CAS distributor head fairly easily. Maybe not......


Regards
Hubert
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Old 05-19-2021, 08:37 PM   #18
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</ramble on>
Let's try this again. Here's a link to a ~2003 Bosch ignition modules doc:
www.pim-engineering.com/tiedostot/ignitionmodules.pdf

My read of this [aka good guess] is that there were 3 types of ignition modules at the time (ignoring the number channels):
1) Inductive Trigger (aka +/- AC sine wave) with dwell control
2a) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, shared sensor and coil power
2b) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, separate sensor and coil power
3) ECU Trigger (aka + DC squarewave), no dwell control

An Inductive Trigger, or VR trigger, generates a + or - voltage pulse at each edge of the distributor flag/tooth. The pulses are roughly half sinewave in shape. For discussion, say that a positive voltage pulse is generated at the beginning of the distributor flag, and a negative voltage pulse at the end of the flag.

A Hall Trigger generates a + voltage square wave. For discussion, say that it's ~0volts when the flag is not in front of the sensor, and ~11volts, or maybe 5volts, when the flag is in front of the sensor.

If you sketch out the Trigger signals, or view them on an oscilloscope, you'll see that they're much different. You need to match the type of the module to your trigger signal - Hall&DC or Inductive&AC. Do you know what your trigger signal looks like?

For modules with dwell control, the positive pulse or rising edge of the trigger signal starts to charge the coil. The dwell control circuits may delay charging from this starting pulse/edge as needed. The negative pulse or falling edge of the trigger signal then fires the spark.

If you understand this so far, you'll realize that a Hall module with dwell control can also be used with an ECU that controls dwell. In this case, the module starts to charge immediately without any delay on the rising ECU signal. An inductive AC trigger module won't work due to the DC/square wave from the ECU.

The next issue is what the ECU spark signal looks like when using multiple coils. If the positive pulse width stays the same, but the low time ~doubles, then modules with dwell control should work fine. The time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil stays the same.

If the pulse width doubles when changing to multi-coil mode, then modules with dwell control may have problems at low speeds. In this case, the time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil becomes much longer.

Do you know what the spark output from your ECU looks like in single coil mode and what it looks like in multi-coil mode? Does the ECU allow any configuration of the spark outputs other than number of coils?
-Bob
</ramble off>
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:18 PM   #19
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They are known to have high rpm break up issues in the 5.0 world. There is another member on the board locally who has a fox body mustang with a warmed over 5.0 which makes 325whp on a haltech box using the factory tfi stuff. He has consistent breakup issues at 5500-ish rpm. After talking to a well known 5.0/haltech tuner, it seems like this is a regular thing which happens.
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:19 PM   #20
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Also, I had little to no issues using an MSD 6AL box for years.
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Wow 7oo hundred views of the TFI with only Culberro's kind input. Is Culberro the only other one currently on board that has worked with or even looked at other ignitions outside the EZK and dumb ignitors?

Stellar !

Regards
Hubert
No, but this is a Volvo board not a Ford forum. A lot of people use the modern upgrade of 4 LS coils when going to a stand alone or just an MSD box when keeping a factory style ignition. No need to be a pompous ass about things.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
</ramble on>
Let's try this again. Here's a link to a ~2003 Bosch ignition modules doc:
www.pim-engineering.com/tiedostot/ignitionmodules.pdf

My read of this [aka good guess] is that there were 3 types of ignition modules at the time (ignoring the number channels):
1) Inductive Trigger (aka +/- AC sine wave) with dwell control
2a) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, shared sensor and coil power
2b) Hall Trigger (aka + DC squarewave) with dwell control, separate sensor and coil power
3) ECU Trigger (aka + DC squarewave), no dwell control

An Inductive Trigger, or VR trigger, generates a + or - voltage pulse at each edge of the distributor flag/tooth. The pulses are roughly half sinewave in shape. For discussion, say that a positive voltage pulse is generated at the beginning of the distributor flag, and a negative voltage pulse at the end of the flag.

A Hall Trigger generates a + voltage square wave. For discussion, say that it's ~0volts when the flag is not in front of the sensor, and ~11volts, or maybe 5volts, when the flag is in front of the sensor.

If you sketch out the Trigger signals, or view them on an oscilloscope, you'll see that they're much different. You need to match the type of the module to your trigger signal - Hall&DC or Inductive&AC. Do you know what your trigger signal looks like?

For modules with dwell control, the positive pulse or rising edge of the trigger signal starts to charge the coil. The dwell control circuits may delay charging from this starting pulse/edge as needed. The negative pulse or falling edge of the trigger signal then fires the spark.

If you understand this so far, you'll realize that a Hall module with dwell control can also be used with an ECU that controls dwell. In this case, the module starts to charge immediately without any delay on the rising ECU signal. An inductive AC trigger module won't work due to the DC/square wave from the ECU.

The next issue is what the ECU spark signal looks like when using multiple coils. If the positive pulse width stays the same, but the low time ~doubles, then modules with dwell control should work fine. The time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil stays the same.

If the pulse width doubles when changing to multi-coil mode, then modules with dwell control may have problems at low speeds. In this case, the time the module needs to delay before starting to charge the coil becomes much longer.

Do you know what the spark output from your ECU looks like in single coil mode and what it looks like in multi-coil mode? Does the ECU allow any configuration of the spark outputs other than number of coils?
-Bob
</ramble off>
Thank you for that link .

All the hall ignition options appear to be 1 channel so for wasted spark two would have to be used with double ended coil packs on two of the ECU 4 ignition outputs to be price practical. The ambiguity comes in when Bosch specifies MEC 717 or MEC718 for those modules. Does that mean they are the only coils they are compatible with? That would make this impractical for independent 4 cylinder ignition control. It means it would require 4 of these single channel ignition modules and four individual coils. The other issue is of the three the 137 uses one more pin and is the only one that crosses with the 008. I think if a good 4 channel CDI was available for 400 that would be great. It may be more practical in that case to run a 4 channel CDI with the "LS" coils packs.

I guess its a plain azz that thinks this is some Chevy forum. He should get the FT, T6, and 3.2 V8, motors like me and the rest of the true Volvo club members here that have some money to build the motors and get off that junkyard LS dic..

Thanks bobxyz.

Regards,
Hubert

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Old 05-20-2021, 12:53 AM   #23
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You should check out an M&W pro-14. Slightly more than $400, but it seems like it might be what you're after. I have seen a few used units get down to the $500 mark.
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:02 AM   #24
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You should check out an M&W pro-14. Slightly more than $400, but it seems like it might be what you're after. I have seen a few used units get down to the $500 mark.
Thanks for that.
I don't know much about them, but thought maybe they were a better performer than a MSD DIS4 which I dont know that much about either to be quite honest.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-20-2021, 01:40 AM   #25
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Thanks for that.
I don't know much about them, but thought maybe they were a better performer than a MSD DIS4 which I dont know that much about either to be quite honest.

Regards
Hubert
They are quite as popular these days as most choose to go with IGN1A coils for high end racing applications now, but M&W cdi boxes used to be the go to for import drag and circuit racing 10-15 years ago. Think about 4 cylinder hondas on methanol running 60+ psi.
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