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Old 06-15-2021, 09:09 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
or a heater in the winter for those northern climates ;)
It's a 240, blown heater core and the hoses are looped






That was a joke btw
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:40 PM   #177
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It's a 240, blown heater core and the hoses are looped






That was a joke btw
I just zip tied the hose under the dash mostly closed since the heater won't shut off due to bad heater valve.
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Old 06-15-2021, 11:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
And why would you ask them about that topology when that isnt the one you were shown by me to drive a high current bridge.

[blah blah blah]
OK, let's talk topology. Here's your first recommendation:

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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
this is a breakout board for the logic IC. Build a bridge with hard switching fet or IGBT (high voltage) and this is the logic that runs it. It times commutation with a hall sensor on the motor shaft. Put the H bridge in a large car audio amplifier chassis and run fan and liquid cooling through the chassis. The inverter is proportionately controlled by drive by wire throttle. Because the fast processing needed for commutation is handled by the logic based ic you can incorporate fairly unsophisticated microcontroller to provide a GUI for controlling the IC's options.
This is the same exact topology that I referenced. It may look a bit different in the datasheet (page 18) because the datasheet version shows the internal chip circuits while your recommended circuit diagram doesn't. The salient points of this topology are:
- provides open collector drivers for external high-side PNP power darlingtons
- provides push-pull drivers for external low-side MOSFETs
- uses open loop speed control and open loop acceleration/deceleration control
- limited to a maximum motor voltage of ~40volts (due to the open-collector high side drivers).
- using the "brake" pin will reduce the usable motor voltage due to overvoltage from the back EMF.

Continuing on, here's the second topology that you recommended:

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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Building a drive really cant be much simpler than using an IC like this to control a dc or 3 phase bridge.


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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
[CENTER]
This topology is better because it adds a pre-driver stage to allow higher motor voltages, but the chosen parts and PCB design are still only good for ~60volts, and it's still an open loop controller. Something like this would be OK for a small electric boat motor where you don't care about closed loop speed control or acceleration/deceleration behavior. In fact, a small electric boat is what the original designer uses it for - see:
https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/w...1/#post-465723, and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23350

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
One can build a rhobust bridge and fire it with the IC been there done it already...
OK, time to put up or shut up. Since you've "been there done it already", let's see the pictures. And since the context of this thread is an EV turbobrick, I want to see pictures of your controller being used with a real automotive traction motor, not another low voltage, small motor, open-loop application. So, got any pictures to back up your claims?
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Old 06-16-2021, 09:38 AM   #179
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Goodluck buddy because you dont have a single photo of a motor you have wound or an inverter you built and your claim is simply wrong about the ic then and now. No need for me to waste my time if you are an EE you know how ridiculous you sound. You're still here trying to cover YOUR OWN OVERCITE. Looking at an example posted to show you it can drive 'high current fets'. Im not gonna show you a how to build a drive and you're obviously the expert in the room with that statement. I got things to do besides argue or always need to be the turbobrick villige idiot throwing worthless ad hominem. Clearly it will run high current fets those have a package rating of 195 amperes!!! What you said is it wont run drive a high current bridge an only toys and hand tools and that's clearly incorrect at single 195 ampere 70 volt fet. It isn't my fault that you cannot comprehend it doesn't take rocket science to stack fets or chose higher voltage fets but then if you understand ohms law then you know you can reach the target HP numbers through voltage or amperage so from an electrical sense it is a ignorant argument anyway. They have 48 volt systems. ISCAD is one and more advanced that anything you've been shown in these threads. Anyone can look up a IRFP4368 and know its a 195 ampere fet and could handle more if I keep the package cool the silicon junction is 390 plus amperes. For one fet thats high current but I see you know.... Since youd dig deep you already seen a video of it running with these fets. I hope eventually you can accept that you're obviously no expert here in this world. To question the age of a chip show even more brilliance if you just asked yourself how old a 555 timer is and how widely its still used in modern electronics. Its about the silliest post a person can make about an IC. Its about functionality not age. If it works and it works well people will use an IC as long as they make it and of course they still are but the Eureka moment still hasn't arrived in the brightest minds here. All this just to be right and you still wrong sitting there mad about it. I cant waste my time with your misplaced belligerence over an IC because your wrong about it.. what hand tool or hand vac pulls 195 amperes at 70 volts? Thats just at a glance ignorance. If you've any experience building a drive you wouldn't be here arguing. Its truly silly...the overcite. You have a problem with high current inverter design I do not so don't pose me with your problems that aren't really problems for people who do it. This is why a 448 gram @ 20 hp sporting over 95% sits in the palm of my hands and you've never gotten your fet wet in inverter or electric motor design but have all the answers that's why you suggest a HACK and probably why my old thread still holds double the view count here and no one that posted a actual car there is speaking here. The only one really keeping that going is every reply of mine you learn from. The chip is for motor control of not specific devices and meets automotive protocol as it states. you do not know what you are talking about and that's final! If you don't know how to achieve the goal that's your problem!! You definitely wont be shown by me harassing me wit ad hominem and that's for sure!!! I was never talking to you anyway my suggestion were for the op whose has the knowledge resources to make it happen if he chooses you here arguing that he chooses your ideas over mine and that's immaterial to me I care less what route he takes. I don't quest at all cost to be TB's village guru on every topic...I do not need that affirmation. But you do not know anything about inverter design and the continued pining of this simple **** proves it. Your wrong and that's it.




You are wasting my time with personal nonsense not facts
If you have nothing better to do that try to prove your right about an IC and know nothing about inverter design you do that BUt i have a real life I live wit a real woman and family away from TB and don't have time for this level of I gotta be right ignorance .

I have no more time for this thread its really nothing...
In Tandem with the right brushes people are peaking 750- 1000 hp with the two warp 9s.Ray Charles can see what is involved mechanically. A lot less mechanically and electrically but run what you want. None of it comes in under 3000.00 and I bet you wont run 10s. This thread is a real pipe dream I wont smoke. Good luck with it. Don't waste any more of my time with silly questions you should know if your the expert in the room. IF YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS U DO IT THEN PAT YOUSELVES ON THE BACK. U looking for proving grounds here after 11000 views of that but stand there with totally empty hands. That's truly outstanding.

Last edited by hk 40; 06-16-2021 at 11:17 AM..
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:02 AM   #180
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Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

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SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:04 AM   #181
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17 edits so far on that post. He did 35 on one of his earlier posts.

Must be a weird phone world thing to do.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:06 AM   #182
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The only one really keeping that going is every reply of mine you learn from.
So does that head of yours have its own area code or zip code at this point?
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:11 AM   #183
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17 edits so far on that post. He did 35 on one of his earlier posts.

Must be a weird phone world thing to do.
I think that might be a wiki search thing to do.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:12 AM   #184
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17 edits so far on that post. He did 35 on one of his earlier posts.

Must be a weird phone world thing to do.
for someone who doesn't have the time he has an awful lot of time. Also Bob is one of the top 5 most helpful people on the board, team Bob.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:13 AM   #185
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for someone who doesn't have the time he has an awful lot of time. Also Bob is one of the top 5 most helpful people on the board, team Bob.
QFT. Team Bob!
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:14 AM   #186
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19 edits now.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:18 AM   #187
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I gotta get it all in but the facts still remain the IC works and the village expert is wrong. Him being helpful with IC engines and there associated electronics dont mean anything here. If it did he wouldnt be wrong would he.....

Edit..
a waste of time goodbye.

Last edited by hk 40; 06-16-2021 at 11:20 AM.. Reason: TO EDIT
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:22 AM   #188
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:30 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
OK, let's talk topology. Here's your first recommendation:



This is the same exact topology that I referenced. It may look a bit different in the datasheet (page 18) because the datasheet version shows the internal chip circuits while your recommended circuit diagram doesn't. The salient points of this topology are:
- provides open collector drivers for external high-side PNP power darlingtons
- provides push-pull drivers for external low-side MOSFETs
- uses open loop speed control and open loop acceleration/deceleration control
- limited to a maximum motor voltage of ~40volts (due to the open-collector high side drivers).
- using the "brake" pin will reduce the usable motor voltage due to overvoltage from the back EMF.

Continuing on, here's the second topology that you recommended:




This topology is better because it adds a pre-driver stage to allow higher motor voltages, but the chosen parts and PCB design are still only good for ~60volts, and it's still an open loop controller. Something like this would be OK for a small electric boat motor where you don't care about closed loop speed control or acceleration/deceleration behavior. In fact, a small electric boat is what the original designer uses it for - see:
https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/w...1/#post-465723, and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23350


OK, time to put up or shut up. Since you've "been there done it already", let's see the pictures. And since the context of this thread is an EV turbobrick, I want to see pictures of your controller being used with a real automotive traction motor, not another low voltage, small motor, open-loop application. So, got any pictures to back up your claims?
Good stuff Bob.

Could you please (if it's even possible) translate the above features/limitations into a layman-friendly comparison to control systems for major manufacturer EV drives (assuming they operate under the same general principles)? I'm just curious and totally out of my element here, only have a basic understanding. Mainly what I want to know, if it even can be explained, how does e.g. a Nissan Leaf's control system compare to the homebrew stuff?
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:32 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by woodenpudden View Post
Could you please (if it's even possible) translate the above features/limitations into a layman-friendly comparison to control systems for major manufacturer EV drives (assuming they operate under the same general principles)? I'm just curious and totally out of my element here, only have a basic understanding. Mainly what I want to know, if it even can be explained, how does e.g. a Nissan Leaf's control system compare to the homebrew stuff?
While not the Bob you wanted, I'll shorten my name to Bob for a reply to this while I finish my morning cup of coffee
This is grossly simplified so I assume others will point out how I'm wrong, because this is the internet.

Simple open loop motor controllers send out a power waveform that is very similar to the AC power lines that power your home. The controller is changing the frequency of these waves to change the RPM. Torque is a product of the current going through the motor.
You tell the motor controller that I want xxxRPM or xxxTorque and it provides the frequency or the current to do so, mostly. The motor will lag the frequency and this can cause issues. Especially with fine motion control or when you're trying multiple motors together. In multi-motor setups, they will often fight each other and cause the system efficiency to go down drastically.

For more complicated motors and controllers (mid-level hobby grade), there will be a encoder sending back position information to the controller. If the controller is sophisticated enough to process this info, the waveforms can be adjusted in real time to increase the efficiency of the system (more power, less heat). This would be considered "closed-loops" and is available with ~$700 motor controllers, but you have to do all the tuning yourself.
These systems work ok for single and some dual motor configurations. If you're doing a AWD or dual-drive motor setup, the motors can still fight each other as they all try to maintain their commanded position. For these systems to work well, you need added layers of software tuning to make the system work smoothly and efficiently. More often than not, this will require an intermediate VCU (vehicle control unit) to process throttle pedal commands and send a manipulated throttle command to each individual motor controller. Alternatively, you can spend more money on a controller that is designed and built for dual-motor control. That's going to be ~$2000 for a commercially available one, but you'll need the ~$500 software package as well

OEM controllers have a much more sophisticated control system that will look at many different inputs and then adjust the motor wave form. They also have more complicated tuning that allows for multiple "tables" to change/tune/adjust the waveform.
The clever "hack" with using an OEM controller is to just send it a throttle command, and then float it some values for the other inputs that make it all happy.
The hardware side of the OEM controllers are going to be extremely overbuilt as well. That is why you are seeing EV hotrodders getting 2-3x the power and torque out of the systems.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:43 PM   #191
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Also, when you want to talk about the hardware and mechanical differences, I'm more than willing to shed some light on that as well. I've worked on, designed, and built control and mechanical systems that span from small servo and DC drives used in mechanisms all the way up to AWD EVs using multiple PMAC motors.

cwdodson works on systems that are probably 4x more powerful than what I currently work on, so he's probably able to offer some better insight as well.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:52 PM   #192
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The IC is equipped with a rotor position decoder for enabling an accurate commutation sequencing, temperature compensated reference for facilitating correct sensor voltage, a programmable frequency sawtooth oscillator, three in-built open collector high-side driver stages, and three high current totem-pole type low-side drivers, specifically designed to operate an 3-phase H-bridge high power mosfet motor controller stage.

The chip is also internally bolstered with high end protection features, and foolproof controls stages such as under-voltage lockout, cycle-by-cycle current limiting through an option of adjustable delay latched shutdown, internal IC high temperature shut down, and an exclusively devised fault output pinout which may be interfaced with an MCU for a preferred advanced processing and feed backs.

Typical functions that can be executed with this IC are, open loop speed control, forward reverse direction control, "run enable", an emergency dynamic brake feature.

The IC is designed to work with motor sensors having phases of 60 to 300 degrees or 120 to 240 degrees, as a bonus the IC can eb also used for controlling the traditional brushed motors.



This versatile Brushless (BLDC) motor controller IC is featured to control any desired high voltage, high current, hall effect sensor equipped 3-phase BLDC motor with extreme accuracy and safety. Let's learn the details in depth.




PIN OUT Functions:
Pin1, 2, 24 (Bt, At, Ct) = These are the three upper drive outputs of the IC specified to operate the externally configured power devices such as BJTs. These pinouts are internally configured as open collector mode.


Pin#3 (Fwd, Rev) = This pinout is intended to be used for controlling the direction of the motor rotation.

Pin#4, 5, 6 (Sa, Sb, Sc) = These are 3 sensor outputs of the IC assigned to command the control sequence of the motor.

Pin#7 (Output Enable) = This pin of the IC is assigned to enable the motor operation as long as a high logic is maintained here, while a low logic is for enabling a coasting of the motor.



Pin#8 ( Reference Output) = This pin is enabled with a supply current for charging the oscillator timing capacitor Ct as well as provide a reference level for the error amplifier. It can be also used for providing supply power to the motor Hall effect sensor ICs.

Pin#9 (Current Sense non-inverting Input): The signal output of 100mV may be achieved from this pinout with reference to pin#15 and is used for cancelling the output switch conduction during a specified oscillator cycle. This pinout normally links up with the upper side of the current sensing resistor.

Pin#10 (Oscillator): This pinout determines the oscillator frequency for the IC with the help of the RC network Rt, and Ct.

READ MORE RPM Controller Circuit for Diesel Generators
Pin#11 (Error amp non-inverting Input): This pinout is used with the speed control potentiometer.

Pin#12 (Error amp inverting Input): This pin is internally hooked up with the above mentioned error amp output for enabling the open loop applications.


Pin#13 (Error amp output/PWM Input): The function of this pinout is to provide compensation during closed loop applications.

Pin#14 (Fault Output): This fault indicator output may become an active logic low during a few critical conditions such as: Invalid Input code for the sensor, Enable pinout fed with a zero logic, Current sense input pinout getting higher than 100mV (@ pin9 with reference to pin15), triggering of the under voltage lockout, or a thermal shutdown situation).

Pin#15 (Current sense inverting input): This pin is set for providing the reference level for the internal 100mV threshold, and may be seen connected with the lower side current sense resistor.

Pin#16 (GND): This is the ground pin of the IC and is designated to provide the ground signal to the control circuit and is required to be referenced back to the power source ground.

Pin#17: (Vcc): This is the supply positive pin specified to the provide the positive voltage to the control circuit of the IC. The minimum range of operation of this pin being 10V and the max at 30V.



Pin#18 (Vc): This pinout sets the high state (Voh) for the lower drive outputs through the power attributed to this pin. The stage works with the range of 10 to 30V.

Pin#19, 20, 21 (Cb, Bb, Ab): These three pinouts are internally arranged in the form of totem pole outputs and are assigned to drive the lower drive output power devices.

Pin#22 (60 D, 120D phase shift select): The status attributed to this pinout configures the control circuit operation with the Hall effect sensors for either a 60 degrees (high logic) or 120 degrees (low logic) phase angle inputs.

Pin#23 (Brake): A logic low at this pinout will allow the BLDC motor to run smoothly while a logic high will instantly stop the motor operation through a rapid deceleration.

FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION
A representative internal block diagram is demonstrated in the above figure. A discourse of the benefits and working of each one of the central blocks enumerated below.

Rotor Position Decoder

An inner rotor position decoder meters the 3 sensor inputs (Pins 4, 5, 6) to render the the right sequencing of the upper and lower drive pinouts. The sensor inputs are manufactured to interface straight with open collector type Hall Effect switches or opto slotted couplers.

In-built pull−up resistors are classified to curtail the necessary amount of external parts. The inputs are TTL compatible, with their thresholds characteristically at 2.2 V.

The MC33035 range of ICs is intended to control 3 phase motors and run with 4 of the most popular conventions of sensor phasing. A 60°/120° Select (Pin 22) is expediently supplied and furnishes the MC33035 to configure on its own to regulate motors having either 60°, 120°, 240° or 300° electrical sensor phasing.

With 3 sensor inputs you will discover 8 potential input code formations, 6 of which are legitimate rotor placements.

The other two codes are outdated as they are generally a result of an open or shorted sensor connection.



With 6 justifiable input codes, the decoder may possibly take care of the motor rotor position to within a spectrum of 60 electrical degrees.

The Forward/Reverse input (Pin 3) is used as a tool to modify the course of motor schedule by reversing the voltage across the stator winding.

As soon as the input alters state, from high to low using a assigned sensor input program code (for instance 100), the facilitated top and base drive outputs using the same alpha status are swapped (AT to AB, BT to BB, CT to CB).

Essentially, the changeable string is changed direction and the motor reverses directional sequence. Motor on/off control is achieved by the Output Enable (Pin 7).

Whenever left disconnected, an internal 25 μA current supply permits sequencing of the leading and base drive outputs. When grounded, the top part drive outputs switch off and the base drives are pushed to low, evoking the motor to coast and the Fault output to trigger.


Dynamic motor braking makes it possible for a surplus margin of protection to be developed into the final device. Braking system is achieved by putting your Brake Input (Pin 23) within a higher status.

This leads to the top drive outputs to switch off and the underside drives to activate, shorting the motor−generated again EMF. The brake input possesses absolute, wholehearted consideration over all other inputs. The inner 40 kΩ pull−up resistor streeamlines interfacing using the program safety−switch by guaranteeing brake activation in case opened up or shut off.

The commutation logic truth table is shown in below. A 4 input NOR gate is employed to examine the brake input and the inputs to the 3 top drive output BJTs.

The objective is usually to turn off braking before the top drive outputs accomplish a high status. This allows you to avoid synchronized leasing of the the top and base power switches.

In half wave motor drive programs, the top drive components are generally not needed and they are in most cases kept detached. With these types of circumstances braking is still going to be attained because the NOR gate detects the base voltage to the top drive output BJTs.

Error-Amplifier
An improved efficiency, fully compensated error amplifier with active access to each inputs and output (Pins#11, 12, 13) is offered to assist in the execution of closed-loop-motor speed control.

The amplifier comes with a standard DC voltage gain of 80 dB, 0.6 MHz gain bandwidth, along with a wide input common mode voltage range that stretches from ground to Vref.

In the majority of open loop speed control programs, the amplifier is set up as a unity gain voltage follower with the noninverting input coupled to the speed set voltage supply.

Oscillator The frequency of the inner ramp oscillator is hard-wired through the values decided on for timing elements RT and CT.

Capacitor CT will be charged through the Reference Output (Pin 8) by means of resistor RT and discharged through an inner discharge transistor.

The ramp peak and pit voltages are normally 4.1 V and 1.5 V correspondingly. To offer a decent skimp on among audible noise and output switching performance, an oscillator frequency in the selection of 20 to 30 kHz is suggested. Make reference to Figure 1 for component selection.

Pulse Width Modulator
The integrated pulse-width-modulation offers an power effective approach to governing the motor speed by altering the standard voltage ascribed to every stator winding throughout the commutation series.

As CT discharges, the oscillator models each latches, enabling conduction of the uppper and lower drive outputs. The PWM comparator resets the top latch, terminating the lower drive output leasing once the positive−going ramp of CT turns into in excess of the error amplifier outcome.

The pulse-width-modulator timing diagram is demonstrated in Figure 21.

Pulse width modulation for speed management presents itself exclusively at the lower drive outputs. Current Limit Constant functioning of a motor that may be significantly over−loaded leads to overheating and inevitable malfunction.

This detrimental situation can easily best be averted together with the use of cycle−by−cycle current restriction.

That is, every on−cycle is dealt with as being a independent function. Cycle−by−cycle current restriction is achieved by tracking the stator current build−up everytime an output switch triggers, and after sensing a high current situation, instantly disabling the switch and retaining it off for the outstanding period of oscillator ramp−up interval.

The stator current is transformed into a voltage through applying a ground−referenced sensing resistor RS (Figure 36) in line with the 3 lower part switch transistors (Q4, Q5, Q6).

The voltage established along the anticipating resistor is supervised with the Current Sense Input (Pins 9 and 15), and compared with the inner 100 mV reference point.

The current sense comparator inputs come with an input common mode range of roughly 3.0 V.

In the event the 100 mV current sense tolerance is surpassed, the comparator resets the lower sense lock and ends output switch conduction. The value for the current sensing resistor is actually
Rs = 0.1/Istator(max)

The Fault output initiates while in an high amp situation. The dual−latch PWM setting makes certain that just one single output trigger pulse arises in the course of a certain oscillator routine, whether or not ended by way of the output of the error amplifier or the current limit comparator.

The on−chip 6.25 V regulator (Pin 8) offers charging current for the oscillator timing capacitor, a reference point for the error amplifier, which enable it to supply 20 mA of current appropriate for specifically powering sensors in low voltage programs.

In larger voltage purposes, this could grow to be important to exchange the power emitted from the regulator off the IC. This is definitely achieved with the help of another pass transistor as demonstrated in Figure 22.

A 6.25 V benchmark point seemed to be decided to enable rendering of the straightforward NPN circuit, wheresoever Vref − VBE surpasses the minimal voltage essential by Hall Effect sensors over heat.

Having proper transistor assortment and sufficient heatsinking, as much as 1 amp of load current can be purchased.

Undervoltage-Lockout
A three-way Undervoltage Lockout have been integrated to reduce harm to the IC and the alternative power switch transistors. During low power supply factors, it ensures the fact that IC and sensors are completely functional, and that there is adequate base drive output voltage.

The positive power supplies to the IC (VCC) and the low drives (VC) are each examined by independent comparators that get their thresholds at 9.1 V. This particular stage guarantees adequate gate commute required to attain low RDS(on) whenever driving ordinary power MOSFET equipment.

Whenever directly energizing the Hall sensors from the reference, inappropriate sensor operation appear in the event the reference point output voltage drops underneath 4.5 V.

A 3rd comparator can be used to recognize this issue.

When more than one of the comparators picks up an undervoltage situation, the Fault Output is turned on, the top runs are put off and the base drive outputs are organised in a low point out.

Each one of the comparators incorporate hysteresis to protect against amplitudes when bridging their individual thresholds.

Fault Output
The open collector Fault Output (Pin 14) had been intended to offer analysis details in case of a process breakdown. It has a sink current ability of 16 mA and may specifically drive a light emitting diode for visible signal. Furthermore, it is actually conveniently interfaced with TTL/CMOS logic for use in a microprocessor governed program.

The Fault Output is effective low while more than one of the subsequent situations take place:

1) Invalid Sensor Input codes

2) Output Enable at logic [0]

3) Current Sense Input more than 100 mV

4) Undervoltage Lockout, activation of 1 or higher of the comparators

5) Heat Shutdown, optimum junction temp getting maxed This exclusive output may also be used to tell apart between motor start−up or endured functioning within an inundated situation.

With the help of an RC network amongst the Fault Output and the enable input, this means you can develop a time−delayed latched shutdown with regard to overcurrent.

Additional circuitry displayed in Figure 23 helps make effortless starting up of motor systems that are fitted with higher inertial loads by giving supplemental pick-up torque, whilst still safe guarding overcurrent protection. This task is achieved by placing the current restrict to the next than minimal value for a established period. In the course of an exceedingly lengthy overcurrent situation, capacitor CDLY will charge, evoking the enable input to get across its tolerance to a low condition.

A latch can now be shaped by the positive feedback cycle from the Fault Output to the Output Enable. When set, by the Current Sense Input, it could only be reset by shorting CDLY or cycling the power supplies.

The turbobricks way lacks alot of information and truth about the device. Clearly neither have any experience building an inverter with this chip you can listen to all the overcite if you choose. Common sense tell any designer that the brain doesn't dictate the muscle mass.

He designs drives so he will tell you how to find the commutation coefficients for a purpose built SRM for instance to build a drive to control it .

Have fun....clowning with the real bull**** your being delivered here about the IC
Hubert

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Old 06-16-2021, 01:04 PM   #193
culberro
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Here are some places that sell components for the DIY EV community. If you know of any more, please add them.
Most of these places will sell a "kit" with a motor and controller that are matched well. This will give you an idea of what the costs will be if buying new, and using a decent quality product from known suppliers.

https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/

https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/

https://evwest.com/catalog/

https://www.electricmotorsport.com/ev-parts

https://evsource.com/
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
The IC is equipped with a rotor position decoder for enabling an accurate commutation sequencing, temperature compensated reference for facilitating correct sensor voltage, a programmable frequency sawtooth oscillator, three in-built open collector high-side driver stages, and three high current totem-pole type low-side drivers, specifically designed to operate an 3-phase H-bridge high power mosfet motor controller stage.

The chip is also internally bolstered with high end protection features, and foolproof controls stages such as under-voltage lockout, cycle-by-cycle current limiting through an option of adjustable delay latched shutdown, internal IC high temperature shut down, and an exclusively devised fault output pinout which may be interfaced with an MCU for a preferred advanced processing and feed backs.

Typical functions that can be executed with this IC are, open loop speed control, forward reverse direction control, "run enable", an emergency dynamic brake feature.

The IC is designed to work with motor sensors having phases of 60 to 300 degrees or 120 to 240 degrees, as a bonus the IC can eb also used for controlling the traditional brushed motors.



This versatile Brushless (BLDC) motor controller IC is featured to control any desired high voltage, high current, hall effect sensor equipped 3-phase BLDC motor with extreme accuracy and safety. Let's learn the details in depth.




PIN OUT Functions:
Pin1, 2, 24 (Bt, At, Ct) = These are the three upper drive outputs of the IC specified to operate the externally configured power devices such as BJTs. These pinouts are internally configured as open collector mode.


Pin#3 (Fwd, Rev) = This pinout is intended to be used for controlling the direction of the motor rotation.

Pin#4, 5, 6 (Sa, Sb, Sc) = These are 3 sensor outputs of the IC assigned to command the control sequence of the motor.

Pin#7 (Output Enable) = This pin of the IC is assigned to enable the motor operation as long as a high logic is maintained here, while a low logic is for enabling a coasting of the motor.



Pin#8 ( Reference Output) = This pin is enabled with a supply current for charging the oscillator timing capacitor Ct as well as provide a reference level for the error amplifier. It can be also used for providing supply power to the motor Hall effect sensor ICs.

Pin#9 (Current Sense non-inverting Input): The signal output of 100mV may be achieved from this pinout with reference to pin#15 and is used for cancelling the output switch conduction during a specified oscillator cycle. This pinout normally links up with the upper side of the current sensing resistor.

Pin#10 (Oscillator): This pinout determines the oscillator frequency for the IC with the help of the RC network Rt, and Ct.

READ MORE RPM Controller Circuit for Diesel Generators
Pin#11 (Error amp non-inverting Input): This pinout is used with the speed control potentiometer.

Pin#12 (Error amp inverting Input): This pin is internally hooked up with the above mentioned error amp output for enabling the open loop applications.


Pin#13 (Error amp output/PWM Input): The function of this pinout is to provide compensation during closed loop applications.

Pin#14 (Fault Output): This fault indicator output may become an active logic low during a few critical conditions such as: Invalid Input code for the sensor, Enable pinout fed with a zero logic, Current sense input pinout getting higher than 100mV (@ pin9 with reference to pin15), triggering of the under voltage lockout, or a thermal shutdown situation).

Pin#15 (Current sense inverting input): This pin is set for providing the reference level for the internal 100mV threshold, and may be seen connected with the lower side current sense resistor.

Pin#16 (GND): This is the ground pin of the IC and is designated to provide the ground signal to the control circuit and is required to be referenced back to the power source ground.

Pin#17: (Vcc): This is the supply positive pin specified to the provide the positive voltage to the control circuit of the IC. The minimum range of operation of this pin being 10V and the max at 30V.



Pin#18 (Vc): This pinout sets the high state (Voh) for the lower drive outputs through the power attributed to this pin. The stage works with the range of 10 to 30V.

Pin#19, 20, 21 (Cb, Bb, Ab): These three pinouts are internally arranged in the form of totem pole outputs and are assigned to drive the lower drive output power devices.

Pin#22 (60 D, 120D phase shift select): The status attributed to this pinout configures the control circuit operation with the Hall effect sensors for either a 60 degrees (high logic) or 120 degrees (low logic) phase angle inputs.

Pin#23 (Brake): A logic low at this pinout will allow the BLDC motor to run smoothly while a logic high will instantly stop the motor operation through a rapid deceleration.

FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION
A representative internal block diagram is demonstrated in the above figure. A discourse of the benefits and working of each one of the central blocks enumerated below.

Rotor Position Decoder

An inner rotor position decoder meters the 3 sensor inputs (Pins 4, 5, 6) to render the the right sequencing of the upper and lower drive pinouts. The sensor inputs are manufactured to interface straight with open collector type Hall Effect switches or opto slotted couplers.

In-built pull−up resistors are classified to curtail the necessary amount of external parts. The inputs are TTL compatible, with their thresholds characteristically at 2.2 V.

The MC33035 range of ICs is intended to control 3 phase motors and run with 4 of the most popular conventions of sensor phasing. A 60°/120° Select (Pin 22) is expediently supplied and furnishes the MC33035 to configure on its own to regulate motors having either 60°, 120°, 240° or 300° electrical sensor phasing.

With 3 sensor inputs you will discover 8 potential input code formations, 6 of which are legitimate rotor placements.

The other two codes are outdated as they are generally a result of an open or shorted sensor connection.



With 6 justifiable input codes, the decoder may possibly take care of the motor rotor position to within a spectrum of 60 electrical degrees.

The Forward/Reverse input (Pin 3) is used as a tool to modify the course of motor schedule by reversing the voltage across the stator winding.

As soon as the input alters state, from high to low using a assigned sensor input program code (for instance 100), the facilitated top and base drive outputs using the same alpha status are swapped (AT to AB, BT to BB, CT to CB).

Essentially, the changeable string is changed direction and the motor reverses directional sequence. Motor on/off control is achieved by the Output Enable (Pin 7).

Whenever left disconnected, an internal 25 μA current supply permits sequencing of the leading and base drive outputs. When grounded, the top part drive outputs switch off and the base drives are pushed to low, evoking the motor to coast and the Fault output to trigger.


Dynamic motor braking makes it possible for a surplus margin of protection to be developed into the final device. Braking system is achieved by putting your Brake Input (Pin 23) within a higher status.

This leads to the top drive outputs to switch off and the underside drives to activate, shorting the motor−generated again EMF. The brake input possesses absolute, wholehearted consideration over all other inputs. The inner 40 kΩ pull−up resistor streeamlines interfacing using the program safety−switch by guaranteeing brake activation in case opened up or shut off.

The commutation logic truth table is shown in below. A 4 input NOR gate is employed to examine the brake input and the inputs to the 3 top drive output BJTs.

The objective is usually to turn off braking before the top drive outputs accomplish a high status. This allows you to avoid synchronized leasing of the the top and base power switches.

In half wave motor drive programs, the top drive components are generally not needed and they are in most cases kept detached. With these types of circumstances braking is still going to be attained because the NOR gate detects the base voltage to the top drive output BJTs.

Error-Amplifier
An improved efficiency, fully compensated error amplifier with active access to each inputs and output (Pins#11, 12, 13) is offered to assist in the execution of closed-loop-motor speed control.

The amplifier comes with a standard DC voltage gain of 80 dB, 0.6 MHz gain bandwidth, along with a wide input common mode voltage range that stretches from ground to Vref.

In the majority of open loop speed control programs, the amplifier is set up as a unity gain voltage follower with the noninverting input coupled to the speed set voltage supply.

Oscillator The frequency of the inner ramp oscillator is hard-wired through the values decided on for timing elements RT and CT.

Capacitor CT will be charged through the Reference Output (Pin 8) by means of resistor RT and discharged through an inner discharge transistor.

The ramp peak and pit voltages are normally 4.1 V and 1.5 V correspondingly. To offer a decent skimp on among audible noise and output switching performance, an oscillator frequency in the selection of 20 to 30 kHz is suggested. Make reference to Figure 1 for component selection.

Pulse Width Modulator
The integrated pulse-width-modulation offers an power effective approach to governing the motor speed by altering the standard voltage ascribed to every stator winding throughout the commutation series.

As CT discharges, the oscillator models each latches, enabling conduction of the uppper and lower drive outputs. The PWM comparator resets the top latch, terminating the lower drive output leasing once the positive−going ramp of CT turns into in excess of the error amplifier outcome.

The pulse-width-modulator timing diagram is demonstrated in Figure 21.

Pulse width modulation for speed management presents itself exclusively at the lower drive outputs. Current Limit Constant functioning of a motor that may be significantly over−loaded leads to overheating and inevitable malfunction.

This detrimental situation can easily best be averted together with the use of cycle−by−cycle current restriction.

That is, every on−cycle is dealt with as being a independent function. Cycle−by−cycle current restriction is achieved by tracking the stator current build−up everytime an output switch triggers, and after sensing a high current situation, instantly disabling the switch and retaining it off for the outstanding period of oscillator ramp−up interval.

The stator current is transformed into a voltage through applying a ground−referenced sensing resistor RS (Figure 36) in line with the 3 lower part switch transistors (Q4, Q5, Q6).

The voltage established along the anticipating resistor is supervised with the Current Sense Input (Pins 9 and 15), and compared with the inner 100 mV reference point.

The current sense comparator inputs come with an input common mode range of roughly 3.0 V.

In the event the 100 mV current sense tolerance is surpassed, the comparator resets the lower sense lock and ends output switch conduction. The value for the current sensing resistor is actually
Rs = 0.1/Istator(max)

The Fault output initiates while in an high amp situation. The dual−latch PWM setting makes certain that just one single output trigger pulse arises in the course of a certain oscillator routine, whether or not ended by way of the output of the error amplifier or the current limit comparator.

The on−chip 6.25 V regulator (Pin 8) offers charging current for the oscillator timing capacitor, a reference point for the error amplifier, which enable it to supply 20 mA of current appropriate for specifically powering sensors in low voltage programs.

In larger voltage purposes, this could grow to be important to exchange the power emitted from the regulator off the IC. This is definitely achieved with the help of another pass transistor as demonstrated in Figure 22.

A 6.25 V benchmark point seemed to be decided to enable rendering of the straightforward NPN circuit, wheresoever Vref − VBE surpasses the minimal voltage essential by Hall Effect sensors over heat.

Having proper transistor assortment and sufficient heatsinking, as much as 1 amp of load current can be purchased.

Undervoltage-Lockout
A three-way Undervoltage Lockout have been integrated to reduce harm to the IC and the alternative power switch transistors. During low power supply factors, it ensures the fact that IC and sensors are completely functional, and that there is adequate base drive output voltage.

The positive power supplies to the IC (VCC) and the low drives (VC) are each examined by independent comparators that get their thresholds at 9.1 V. This particular stage guarantees adequate gate commute required to attain low RDS(on) whenever driving ordinary power MOSFET equipment.

Whenever directly energizing the Hall sensors from the reference, inappropriate sensor operation appear in the event the reference point output voltage drops underneath 4.5 V.

A 3rd comparator can be used to recognize this issue.

When more than one of the comparators picks up an undervoltage situation, the Fault Output is turned on, the top runs are put off and the base drive outputs are organised in a low point out.

Each one of the comparators incorporate hysteresis to protect against amplitudes when bridging their individual thresholds.

Fault Output
The open collector Fault Output (Pin 14) had been intended to offer analysis details in case of a process breakdown. It has a sink current ability of 16 mA and may specifically drive a light emitting diode for visible signal. Furthermore, it is actually conveniently interfaced with TTL/CMOS logic for use in a microprocessor governed program.

The Fault Output is effective low while more than one of the subsequent situations take place:

1) Invalid Sensor Input codes

2) Output Enable at logic [0]

3) Current Sense Input more than 100 mV

4) Undervoltage Lockout, activation of 1 or higher of the comparators

5) Heat Shutdown, optimum junction temp getting maxed This exclusive output may also be used to tell apart between motor start−up or endured functioning within an inundated situation.

With the help of an RC network amongst the Fault Output and the enable input, this means you can develop a time−delayed latched shutdown with regard to overcurrent.

Additional circuitry displayed in Figure 23 helps make effortless starting up of motor systems that are fitted with higher inertial loads by giving supplemental pick-up torque, whilst still safe guarding overcurrent protection. This task is achieved by placing the current restrict to the next than minimal value for a established period. In the course of an exceedingly lengthy overcurrent situation, capacitor CDLY will charge, evoking the enable input to get across its tolerance to a low condition.

A latch can now be shaped by the positive feedback cycle from the Fault Output to the Output Enable. When set, by the Current Sense Input, it could only be reset by shorting CDLY or cycling the power supplies.

The turbobricks way lacks alot of information and truth about the device. Clearly neither have any experience building an inverter with this chip you can listen to all the overcite if you choose. Common sense tell any designer that the brain doesn't dictate the muscle mass.

He designs drives so he will tell you how to find the commutation coefficients for a purpose built SRM for instance to build a drive to control it .

Have fun....clowning
Hubert
You could probably save some effort cutting and pasting and just post a link: https://www.homemade-circuits.com/hi...or-controller/
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:12 PM   #195
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Imagine Motorola knowing nothing about quality . Certainly its a off brand that cannot compare to Chinese garbage....Yeah i could post the link but they certainly have comprehension issue if they read it and posted what they did about it. I think the forum should see the truth for itself. Maybe the asker of the question can read the truth for himself. Since they deliver everything else but that. That's the point sherlock Thanks for the advice after recopying and repating what I said in addition to the simple link. I can tell you on top of it in a logic sense....

Last edited by hk 40; 06-16-2021 at 01:20 PM..
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:18 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
While not the Bob you wanted, I'll shorten my name to Bob for a reply to this while I finish my morning cup of coffee
This is grossly simplified so I assume others will point out how I'm wrong, because this is the internet.

Simple open loop motor controllers send out a power waveform that is very similar to the AC power lines that power your home. The controller is changing the frequency of these waves to change the RPM. Torque is a product of the current going through the motor.
You tell the motor controller that I want xxxRPM or xxxTorque and it provides the frequency or the current to do so, mostly. The motor will lag the frequency and this can cause issues. Especially with fine motion control or when you're trying multiple motors together. In multi-motor setups, they will often fight each other and cause the system efficiency to go down drastically.

For more complicated motors and controllers (mid-level hobby grade), there will be a encoder sending back position information to the controller. If the controller is sophisticated enough to process this info, the waveforms can be adjusted in real time to increase the efficiency of the system (more power, less heat). This would be considered "closed-loops" and is available with ~$700 motor controllers, but you have to do all the tuning yourself.
These systems work ok for single and some dual motor configurations. If you're doing a AWD or dual-drive motor setup, the motors can still fight each other as they all try to maintain their commanded position. For these systems to work well, you need added layers of software tuning to make the system work smoothly and efficiently. More often than not, this will require an intermediate VCU (vehicle control unit) to process throttle pedal commands and send a manipulated throttle command to each individual motor controller. Alternatively, you can spend more money on a controller that is designed and built for dual-motor control. That's going to be ~$2000 for a commercially available one, but you'll need the ~$500 software package as well

OEM controllers have a much more sophisticated control system that will look at many different inputs and then adjust the motor wave form. They also have more complicated tuning that allows for multiple "tables" to change/tune/adjust the waveform.
The clever "hack" with using an OEM controller is to just send it a throttle command, and then float it some values for the other inputs that make it all happy.
The hardware side of the OEM controllers are going to be extremely overbuilt as well. That is why you are seeing EV hotrodders getting 2-3x the power and torque out of the systems.
I think you pretty well nailed the translation. It can be done, but control is no where near what it should be, waveform control is limited, efficiency is limited, torque is limited, rpm is limited to the person implementing it.. And with that youre not just simply asking for a tq value, you're giving it something and crossing your fingers that its close.

Most of these OEM and higher end "Hobbyist" controllers your firmware or motor software is very well calibrated, so you are literally saying heres your voltage, i need XXX tq, k, thanks, bye. These controllers also offer different modes of operation that can be commanded on the fly if using a CAN network to command them rather than simple analog throttle and brake signals. With those you gain things like traction control, cruise, BMS defined current limits (for saftey), charge limits for regen control, user defined modes for economy control, and engine braking feel and a whole host of other things to aid in efficiency and constantly repeatable power delivery no matter the state of charge.
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:24 PM   #197
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What waveform is he going to run with a warp 9 and no a sinus drive is not more efficient driving a BLDC machine youve been told that already but you are not an Engineer so you do not understand. All sinus give you is more controllability and efficiency a partial throttle etc. At wot theres no measurable advantage in either commutation style. This is for a BLDC can you read not a SRM or IM. Get a clue bruh. In this case ther wont be much more accuracy driving at low speed because the IC uses a hall sensor. There for it will have great drivability a low speeds as well. Your back at efficiency again after throwing the real post about it out. Sinus algorithm also require coding none of you can do thats why the price goes up when you need somoene elses brain to achieve your goals.


This is and endless circle of bull**** from you three. With no turbobricks way car posted that any of you have built and never will

Last edited by hk 40; 06-16-2021 at 01:33 PM..
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:25 PM   #198
culberro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
Most of these OEM and higher end "Hobbyist" controllers your firmware or motor software is very well calibrated, so you are literally saying heres your voltage, i need XXX tq, k, thanks, bye. These controllers also offer different modes of operation that can be commanded on the fly if using a CAN network to command them rather than simple analog throttle and brake signals. With those you gain things like traction control, cruise, BMS defined current limits (for saftey), charge limits for regen control, user defined modes for economy control, and engine braking feel and a whole host of other things to aid in efficiency and constantly repeatable power delivery no matter the state of charge.
We’ve been using mostly CAN control, but that too has its limitations.
We’re transitioning to using a VCU (a micro squirt would even work) to just send a RPM command to the motor for accel, and this signal is based upon inputs from a bunch of other sensors.

Braking performance and feedback is a pain to tune. As well as the transition from throttle-coast-brake.
I’m currently helping someone with a e-dirtbike build and we’ve been all over the place for a control strategy. Lots of tuning, lots of testing, lots of thinking.

It’s hard when you want a performance EV to behave like the ICE version in some cases, but then be full hulk mode EV power in others.
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:38 PM   #199
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But why is it you cannot help the EVers here to build a better more efficient motor? If you are the expert why cannot you simply wind a better machine? If you are at the pinnacle why is it you have no direct correspondence with the best motor and inverter creators in the world? And buy off the shelf equipment? You know the ones that design all this crap you buy off shelves. You better check and see who holds the patents on all these machine topologies and control algorithms. Its about 50 patents on all related tech from my colleagues where are yours? Why are your statements about the IC inaccurate and full oversite? Please explain....all this to the forum.

Dieter Gerling
Dajuku Guraquk
Sariful Islam
Konstatin Kenellis
Daoud Omara
JUST TO NAME A FEW

You look them up then you will know the accuracy of your rulers...

Last edited by hk 40; 06-16-2021 at 01:47 PM..
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:49 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
Buy why is it you cannot help the EVers here to build a better more efficient motor? If you are the expert why cannot you simply wind a better machine? If you are at the pinnacle why is it you have no correspondence with the best motor and inverter creators in the world? And buy off the shelf equipment? You know the ones that design all this crap you buy off shelves. You better check and see who holds the patents on all these machine topologies and control algorithms. Its about 50 patents on all related tech from my colleagues where are yours?

Dieter Gerling
Dajuku Guraquk
Sariful Islam
Konstatin Kenellis
Daoud Omara
JUST TO NAME A FEW

You look them up then you will know the accuracy of your rulers...
You are a singularly ridiculous individual, name dropping in an effort to impress people who do not care the least about your credentials. These wheels have been invented and they're round and roll vehicles down the road on electricity. Why would anyone waste their time doing the same thing twice. This thread is about installing electric motors and their controllers in old rwd volvos not motor winding contests.
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