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Old 06-30-2021, 10:35 AM   #351
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Lol, uber derp on my part. I read the top part where it says 'Salvaged Tesla Model S 85kW lithium battery module'.
Yeah, each module is set up of a sieries>parallel arrangement to get the most kwh/discharge rate. So depending on the EV conversion, you can additionally series or parrallel them for your needs.

A full tesla Model 3 75kwh pack is $22K

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=model3pack

The model S has higher peak discharge due to configuration, and more kwh, but rarely do people sell them complete.
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Old 07-06-2021, 10:46 AM   #352
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I bought the MC33035 chips hk 40 mentioned some pages ago. If anyone wants to build a controller around it, let me know. As you can see I have 5 of the old/EOL DIP and 5 of the SMD style.
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Old 07-06-2021, 01:02 PM   #353
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Maybe after I make an LED bar tach. Trade you a beer or two at Dana's.
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Old 07-07-2021, 02:02 PM   #354
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I bought the MC33035 chips hk 40 mentioned some pages ago. If anyone wants to build a controller around it, let me know. As you can see I have 5 of the old/EOL DIP and 5 of the SMD style.


Hi Dalek,

Is this what you plan to do? Certainly it can control the motor in a 48 volt system like the gm parallel starter generator assembly shared here. Do you have real pictures of the stator and rotor assembly for it? The alternator assist wasn't a joke either. Is the GM motor SRM, IM, or PM How many poles and stator teeth is the design? Do you plan to integrate it with a simple mcu?

Regards,
Hubert

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Old 07-08-2021, 08:07 AM   #355
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If you look at the design of the sg rotor assembly it is very easy to see that an external rotor machine would also work simply by turning a bell in the made dimensions as GM's SG rotor and lining it with rare earth pm like so...



Then you'd run the sg external rotor around a mounted stator similar to this. The shafts can easily fit through a plate with a boss to mount the stator too.

This is all very doable through a sandwich of various plates and bell housing adapters for a machinist with the right equipment at hand. You could wind in the hybrid coil topology and attenuate even more unwanted harmonics associated with FSCW machines for even better efficiency and power factor with their improved fill possibilities.


Here is the harmonic content of a 18 tooth 24 pole external rotor as an example. Pretty good harmonically in a traditional FSCW however with the hybrid wind it would be even better.

I guess also for such low quest in e assistance power you could just replace the series wound starter with the BLDC you can fit and have the same thing basically. Mechanically the SG assembly is obviously more stout a mount that two bolts a pinion and large spur off to the side . The idea of starter/generator isn't truly all that new. The generator on my 1954 bel air is nothing but a brushed dc motor. The pm-less design are catching up but still not at the level of power density of a pm machine. We've know since at least 2013 that China will monopolize the rare earth industry, hence all these pm less designs arrive. Afghanistan holds the lithium so it will never be a war free zone thanks to battery tech an smartphones..... Its alternative power but somehow in the future were still gonna pay a price and what do you do with all the spent battery materials. Maybe one day the cars will be powered by a microscopic nuclear fuel cell.

Regards
Hubert.

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Old 07-08-2021, 11:16 AM   #356
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Hi Dalek,

Is this what you plan to do? Certainly it can control the motor in a 48 volt system like the gm parallel starter generator assembly shared here. Do you have real pictures of the stator and rotor assembly for it? The alternator assist wasn't a joke either. Is the GM motor SRM, IM, or PM How many poles and stator teeth is the design? Do you plan to integrate it with a simple mcu?

Regards,
Hubert
This thread is about making an EV turbobrick in the turbobrick way. People talked about controlling motors. You suggested building around the chip and I decided to see how easy it was to get one. And I then decided to offer some of them to the people here who want to give it a try on building something around it. In fact, if the OP sends me his email I will send him a chip. Do I know which motor people will pick? Not at all. Think of it as my contribution to the quest.

What about me? I am not planning on building an Ev -- closest I would consider is a hybrid -- but I still can learn a bit in the process of people actually building something. I myself have a little (supposedly) 3 phase motor (only 3 wires, so there are things it can't do)

which I may want to play with, as I can put the entire assembly -- motor + power source + protoboard (hence me getting some DIP ones) on a box without taking too much space. Once I get that to work I may try something a bit more complicated. But, this is not about me; it is about helping the OP (an other orangutans) building something interesting.

Until you actually cut your fingers open and zap your balls in the process of getting this to work, it is all mental masturbation.

UPDATE: my little motor may be AC. But, it is mine and I have it on my desk right now.
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Old 07-08-2021, 12:59 PM   #357
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Awesome, thank you for taking us along on your ac motor control adventure!
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Old 07-08-2021, 03:42 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by dalek View Post
This thread is about making an EV turbobrick in the turbobrick way. People talked about controlling motors. You suggested building around the chip and I decided to see how easy it was to get one. And I then decided to offer some of them to the people here who want to give it a try on building something around it. In fact, if the OP sends me his email I will send him a chip. Do I know which motor people will pick? Not at all. Think of it as my contribution to the quest.

What about me? I am not planning on building an Ev -- closest I would consider is a hybrid -- but I still can learn a bit in the process of people actually building something. I myself have a little (supposedly) 3 phase motor (only 3 wires, so there are things it can't do)

which I may want to play with, as I can put the entire assembly -- motor + power source + protoboard (hence me getting some DIP ones) on a box without taking too much space. Once I get that to work I may try something a bit more complicated. But, this is not about me; it is about helping the OP (an other orangutans) building something interesting.

Until you actually cut your fingers open and zap your balls in the process of getting this to work, it is all mental masturbation.

UPDATE: my little motor may be AC. But, it is mine and I have it on my desk right now.
Dalek,
This u posted is truly a BLDC machine from a printer or something similar. If you were to run it in generator mode ud likely see it BEMF is not exactly sinus. It more than likely 8 pole in the ring magnet. You can improve its sinus with interspersed overlapped layers . The winds are still concentrated but different phases share teeth. You know no one here is interested in that chip but you. No one is going to engage any thought you may have with it but me. After enough 20000 batteries and accessories are posted maybe there will be interest. However I will engage it since I brought it here.



In the meantime let me show you mental masturbation on my end.



Here's the bemf it puts out. You see the triplen standing on top and bottom on the sinus? Nothing but heat brother and at high speed alot of iron loss....

Its actually an 8 pole 12 stator arm. The winding factor is .86 with plenty of noise. This isnt exactly what a sinus drive wants to see. The IC will likely run more than just bldc because it uses a hall sensor. It probably wont do it efficiency but I bet it will drive it. You need to take constant measurements before you do anything else with it. BLDC Drives from zip drives printers are typically not on the high end of efficiency since a highly efficient BLDC machine isnt needed for a printer just something better than a brushed dc which even the worse BLDC probably is.





Here the same motor rewound by me in a parallel wye. The wind is still the conventional ABCABCABCABC. The harmonic noise is still present but maybe the printer motor can peak >5kW or so now due to better fill and a much lower resistance with 1.5mm conductors and parallel configuration.... It just came out of a printer 50 dollars... U see the additional weight of the mounting flange has been turned away. You can replace your ring magnets with small Neos of the optimal pole count for 9 arms and have a higher torque output and a better winding factor. Unless you have FEMM or some other analytic tool you can not really optimize the pm but you want a fair amount of magnet coverage and to at least maintain some semblance of the original airgap.

A true PMAC motor would never produce the BEMF illustrated here and running it with one will only create commutation ripple. The MC on the other hand would be fine as it isnt looking at zero cross for timing....

Regards
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 07-08-2021 at 05:07 PM..
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Old 07-08-2021, 11:01 PM   #359
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I myself have a little (supposedly) 3 phase motor (only 3 wires, so there are things it can't do)
That's a sensorless 3-phase motor. You want an ebay "brushless dc motor 3 phase hall", the hall sensor being the key difference. The hall sensors tell the motor controller chip what position the rotor is in so that the chip can drive the next phase correctly at low speeds. A sensorless chip steps through the phases blindly until it (hopefully) spins up the motor enough so that it's generating voltage on the un-driven pin (back EMF). It works OK if you never need to run efficiently at very low speeds.

Here's a similar small motor - flip through the pictures and there's one that shows the 3 hall sensors on the PCB 40deg apart:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173933567100

With your existing motor, you can still do a couple experiments:
1) spin it by hand, or cordless drill, and look at the generated voltages across the 3 pins with an oscilloscope -- a 3+ channel scope helps (with ground leads just clipped to each other, and not the motor), but a 2-channel scope will work (with grounds clipped to the 3rd motor wire).

2) put a paper disk on the shaft with a line on it and try to commutate the motor by hand -- I'd guess that a D-cell or 1.5v power supply is sufficient to get it to move. Connect power to one pair of wires at a time. To get it to move consistently in the right direction, you'll cycle through 2 polarities x 3 phases.
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Old 07-09-2021, 07:06 AM   #360
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Dalek its a 3 phase BLDC and the only thing you need is a 3 tooth magnetic trigger wheel that fits on the shaft and 3 small halls switches. Thats all that is in a sensored version nothing special. Ill show you the simple piece when I get home it takes three hall sensor in actuality u see this in the notes. You can find There's really no sense to build a sensorless inverter because at these power levels you can order a drive for about 20 dollars. If you want to use the IC with this motor adding the trigger wheel to the shaft and setting up the hall switches is pretty simple. I figured you read the specs if you ordered it and are aware.




FYI
A bosch seat motor has all the swap pieces you need to amend your BLDC to a sensored version. I show you these simple pieces when I get home later today. I have several of the small magnetic trigger wheels that would go on the shaft.

The hall can also be embedded directly in three arms of the stator teeth or slots and uses the rotors magnets for sense. There are several ways to easily accommodate this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXH6GP8mPU
Here's a video on doing this simple thing and also notice the resemblance to the GM SG stator to his outrunner bell.

Don't forget to capture the motors constants before you do anything. U need to know its idle current, phase resistance, and rpm per volt constant. A pole reader would also help you determine the actual poles in the ring magnet. Its likely 8 but with the tool you'd know for sure. Weigh the rotor bell as well. Also measure the aspect ratio of the stator stacks dimensions. These will al be helpful with efficiency calculators down the road and goof for you to step up to this inverter challenge. Certainly you can do it if you try.
Regards
Hubert

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Old 07-09-2021, 01:11 PM   #361
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That's a sensorless 3-phase motor. You want an ebay "brushless dc motor 3 phase hall", the hall sensor being the key difference. The hall sensors tell the motor controller chip what position the rotor is in so that the chip can drive the next phase correctly at low speeds. A sensorless chip steps through the phases blindly until it (hopefully) spins up the motor enough so that it's generating voltage on the un-driven pin (back EMF). It works OK if you never need to run efficiently at very low speeds.
Thank you for descriptions in such simple language -- it encourages experimentation, which I previously hadn't considered in any significant way.

Quote:
Here's a similar small motor - flip through the pictures and there's one that shows the 3 hall sensors on the PCB 40deg apart:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173933567100
To capture those photos for posterity (or at least as long as eBay continues to host them)

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Old 07-12-2021, 10:44 AM   #362
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Here's one example of a 3 tooth trigger you'd put on a sensorless motors shaft for hall switches to monitor. This is another option versus embedding hall switches between the slots or in the teeth themselves.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:01 PM   #363
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mikep just let me know when you want one.

hx 40, bobxyz: that is the motor I have right now. If adding hall sensor stuff is as easy as hx 40 hinted at, I would like to go that way as everything is exposed in this motor. It makes it easier for someone like me understand what is going on. From what I gather, with the hall thingie it would behave the same as, say, a Honda Insight motor. So, the MC33035 could be used to control it. I need to order the other components though, and then have a raspberry pi or even arduino control it so I can get experience without spending too much money or space. hx 40 mentioned (and I think the datasheet supported him) it can control higher voltage/current motor by having it control the components which will connect directly to the motor; we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Swedishbrick, something you may want to consider is weight:
- The B230 should weight 150Kg (~330lb) with the accessories (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=135613)
- An AW71 weights some 68-70Kg (~150lb) (https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index...344&show_all=1). For comparison the Lexus transmission is another 50lb heavier.
- 14 gallons of fuel weights 40Kg (~90lb)
So, for an automagic RWD Volvo, you have 260Kg to play with without affecting handling. If you can find batteries and an Ev powertrain that weights about that, your Volvo will not know any better. Of course the reality is the batteries will add more to have some reasonable range.

For reference
- Insight (hybrid)
  • batteries : 30kg (65lb)
  • Motor 19.6kg (43.5lb)
  • Engine 108 kg (238lb) dry
  • Transmission something kg
- Nissan leaf (Ev)
  • batteries : 300 kg (661lb)
  • Motor 58kg (128lb)

Which leads to: I was reading about the different kinds of batteries and they all have their issues and features. If anyone with more experience can correct me, please do.
- NiMH has memory does not have the power density of Lithium but can be reconditioned to last almost as long as a lead acid.
- Lithiums cannot be reconditioned, and their manufacturers give like a year warranty at most. And yet Tesla/Leaf cars have been out in the wild for a while and their batteries do not go bad after a year.

Last edited by dalek; 07-13-2021 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 07-13-2021, 08:12 AM   #364
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Thanks, Mauricio.
I’ll be around on Sunday, I think. How close are you to Cary?
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Old 07-13-2021, 08:48 AM   #365
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mikep just let me know when you want one.

hx 40, bobxyz: that is the motor I have right now. If adding hall sensor stuff is as easy as hx 40 hinted at, I would like to go that way as everything is exposed in this motor. It makes it easier for someone like me understand what is going on. From what I gather, with the hall thingie it would behave the same as, say, a Honda Insight motor. So, the MC33035 could be used to control it. I need to order the other components though, and then have a raspberry pi or even arduino control it so I can get experience without spending too much money or space. hx 40 mentioned (and I think the datasheet supported him) it can control higher voltage/current motor by having it control the components which will connect directly to the motor; we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Swedishbrick, something you may want to consider is weight:
- The B230 should weight 150Kg (~330lb) with the accessories (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=135613)
- An AW71 weights some 68-70Kg (~150lb) (https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index...344&show_all=1). For comparison the Lexus transmission is another 50lb heavier.
- 14 gallons of fuel weights 40Kg (~90lb)
So, for an automagic RWD Volvo, you have 260Kg to play with without affecting handling. If you can find batteries and an Ev powertrain that weights about that, your Volvo will not know any better. Of course the reality is the batteries will add more to have some reasonable range.

For reference
- Insight (hybrid)
  • batteries : 30kg (65lb)
  • Motor 19.6kg (43.5lb)
  • Engine 108 kg (238lb) dry
  • Transmission something kg
- Nissan leaf (Ev)
  • batteries : 300 kg (661lb)
  • Motor 58kg (128lb)

Which leads to: I was reading about the different kinds of batteries and they all have their issues and features. If anyone with more experience can correct me, please do.
- NiMH has memory does not have the power density of Lithium but can be reconditioned to last almost as long as a lead acid.
- Lithiums cannot be reconditioned, and their manufacturers give like a year warranty at most. And yet Tesla/Leaf cars have been out in the wild for a while and their batteries do not go bad after a year.


Of course its that eazy unless you think they guy on the video placing the hall in the slot and his scope are secretly working with me to create a ruse for the phone world. You should build the 30 kw drive since the schematics and pcb templates are already available. There's no reason to quest this for such a small reward. I can send you a small motor with the hall sensor already in it, but to build a drive for something this when u can come off the shelf at about 5-10 dollars for a sensorless inverter that will drive it and likely be much smaller than what you build because even the SMT version of the Motorola IC would be much larger than most pico packages. Like you'd find in a hard drive for instance.. If you still quest for this small motor make the drive modular where u have a logic side then the bridge. If you do it correctly the logic board can run different bridges.

Lithium polymer has the most power density of the 3 you listed but are the most volatile. NiMH will give you the most recharge cycles. Lithium Ion is your best medium for power density, stability and charge cycles. This is the reason a good charger and cell balancing array is important. You also do not let LiPo or LiFe run below about 3.4 volts per cell. If you want to help the batteries store them on a charger that cycle them and add a low voltage cutoff or indication so you will know when it needs charging.

I have a pile of hard drive and printer sensor less BLDC. I even have a Axial machine from Sony. Many of them have halls setups already implemented. If you decide you want to focus on just the drive I can send u one of them with halls already setup in it for nothing.

Too bad the EV world cant afford silver oxide.



Regards,
HK

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Old 07-13-2021, 01:07 PM   #366
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Thanks, Mauricio.
I’ll be around on Sunday, I think. How close are you to Cary?
I live close to impolvo, but I can swing by that way
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Old 07-13-2021, 04:30 PM   #367
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I’ll be coming in from Mooresville. Kyle (stick70) might head over too.
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Old 07-14-2021, 08:55 AM   #368
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I plan to use these to power a 120v audio system power supply.
You need to build or add a decent BALANCED charger to your price list.



Seems to me one could wire 5.5 v 1 farad supercaps between the + and - terminals. I haven't done it yet but I see no reason it shouldn't work as long as the balance circuitry that supports it is designed correctly. If you dont like that then consider a large bulk of electrolytic and then compliment them with smaller MLCC between their legs to handle fast transients.


Regards,
Hubert

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Old 07-14-2021, 09:22 AM   #369
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Another interesting warp 9 build that's delivering real performance. An alternative way to spend 5 racks. The mill work looks damn fun to me. Certainly someone like Roger can pull it off the TB way... The motors and the brushed drives would sit at around 6 grand. The Motorola IC will drive brushed motors as well. As originally stated a very useful and versatile IC. You'd need no integration with an ecu as the transmission will still use the speedo and the tach can come directly from a 1 tooth trigger and hall switch. The inverter chip should easily integrate with DBW throttle from a modern Volvo. How people deny such simplicity and cost is beyond me.

https://newatlas.com/sri-electric-off-road-racer/26242/

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Old 07-14-2021, 10:52 AM   #370
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^ A 60 mile range from 2 ton battery pack at speed then recharged by a Perkins diesel generator, this article just highlights the range problem of EV's.

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To answer the "refueling" question, SRI has developed a trailer mounted and solar charging system. This mobile system achieves a five hour full recharge for both battery packs during races via a Perkins Diesel generator. When race ready recharging is not required, a solar system can be drawn upon to provide battery power.
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Old 07-14-2021, 11:02 AM   #371
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^ A 60 mile range from 2 ton battery pack at speed then recharged by a Perkins diesel generator, this article just highlights the range problem of EV's.

A problem that will not be fixed with the budget available here. That part is obvious. Choose something one or the other. High efficiency comes at high cost. Better materials, batteries, motor design, etc. cost more money. Its pretty simple. It should be clear that the JY wont bring the incredible savings initially thought in this quest. The retrofitting of complete drivetrains from other vehicle is also really time consuming and they also cost significant coin in comparison. It will continue to return to cost concerns no matter how you slice it. If you have 100k to spend then 300 miles of range isn't much of an issue.

Lipos are lighter and produce more current but are volitile so it take very little to ruin them or set them a flame. So now you look at buying the high ass batteries twice!!!! It was stated long ago that if you didn't have 10-20k just to get started that no real ev would be possible and this thread has offered nothing that says otherwise. An "e" assist is just that it helps an IC motor reduce its gas consumption and possibly increase its range. The IC motor is the diesel generator like the term "SG" ( stator/generator) suggest but its also the true facilitator of the range since without the e assist most modern IC can still do 300-600 miles range on one tank of gasoline. If one is not going to build anything themselves or amend the cheaper tech available at their budget they certainly wont reduce the cost of high efficiency which brings the range.....

Right back at the importance of 100% versus 80% efficiency in an EV....an endless loop u will not get around with EV's even with a "TB way".

Ask yourself how critical is a highly efficient motor in an ev's range? I say its pretty damn important.

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Old 07-14-2021, 11:43 AM   #372
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Ev West worked on the project and the one Tesla S power unit they sell at 12,000.00 is more than the two warp 9 units they sell. They have it all at there hands yet they chose this. They say they are working on gearing tweaks to improve its range but that range you spoke of is at 125 mph with zero coasting I'm almost sure. This runs on a baja course not a commuter highway with much less drag current demands etc.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...1c352dbaf65987

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Old 07-14-2021, 04:27 PM   #373
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Ev West worked on the project and the one Tesla S power unit they sell at 12,000.00 is more than the two warp 9 units they sell. They have it all at there hands yet they chose this. They say they are working on gearing tweaks to improve its range but that range you spoke of is at 125 mph with zero coasting I'm almost sure. This runs on a baja course not a commuter highway with much less drag current demands etc.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...1c352dbaf65987
You know that the 11.9k price tag of the tesla unit includes the inverter, gear box, dash display and control unit (EV Controls), throttle pedal, throttle pedal plug and pins, brake switch, brake switch plug and pins, encoder plug and pins, inverter plug and pins, axle clips, 2 axles, pre-charge relay, and pre-charge resistor. All that is left is to make your subframe to hold it, deal with cooling, and build a battery pack. Throw in an AEM piggyback black box and pump the power.

Those warp 9's would require speed controller, gear box, dash display and control unit (EV Controls), throttle pedal, throttle pedal plug and pins, brake switch, brake switch plug and pins, axle clips, 2 axles, pre-charge relay, and pre-charge resistor. Not to mention that EV West doesnt carry warps anymore. They've moved on the the hyper series from Netgain.

The new netgain hyper 9 (including a 120v controller) x2 would be 9k, then you still need instrumentation, mounting, coupling, misc bits and bobs. Not to mention that you're still looking at peak shaft torque of less than 200ftlbs
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Old 07-15-2021, 06:08 AM   #374
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Yeah and I also realize a person can use their existing gear box with such a setup and that a warp 9 definitely does not need any of what you mentioned to run mated to a RWD gearbox .. Who has to purchase NEW net gain warp 9s at 4500 each as two warp 9s from jegs take him into the 10s and will run a bit over 5K. Add the controllers they are around 300.00 a piece so its right at 6 grand like said.

How many ft pounds is the 32kw 48 volt e assist again? but its examined here so I dont follow that metric anyway. And none of this is cheap so how will you reduce the cost of the TB way to actually build something?? To sit here and argue when its clear whats cheaper and simpler u do that . Bolts and bits surely take the warp 9 over budget even though he actually needs axles and all the other **** for the type s unit which buy the way incorporates alot of the motor tech Ive shared here....

9 grand for 2 motors 11 for 1 and I need axles and and i have to make it fit, HMMM wat to do....

Wats easier to mount in a RW volvo....




^^^^This which require independent rear axles^^^^



^^^^Or this that requires a bell housing adapter made in a similar fashion that mount directly to a RWD gearbox? Wtf would he get invoved with independent half axles with a brick if he on a budget

Its really simple. EV west didn't use the tesla unit in the race truck and has access to both. Argue with the Tech companies and capitalist that run them....


Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
The new netgain hyper 9 (including a 120v controller) x2 would be 9k, then you still need instrumentation, mounting, coupling, misc bits and bobs. Not to mention that you're still looking at peak shaft torque of less than 200ftlbs
I also realize because I read that the two motor torque is actually 750 ft/lbs. at 535 hp You need to do your homework versus looking to argue all the time. If you know the torque profile of the two machines then you know the induction machine hardly has its pullout torque. This is why you will see series wound DC machines in drag cars and not induction motors. This is also the reason e fork lifts don them. The induction machine is attractive for mass production because it has no rare earth making it cheaper and safer to produce in mass quantities. Is it a better motor than the prius vspoke IPM? IMHO No not really..... and it takes a lot of tech ive shared with you to get the induction machine to be competitive with rare earth machines. This is where the higher cost come in.



The ludicrous p100 only shows 687 ft lbs sir and Tesla has been sued for lying about their power before about the ludicrous p85 suppose to have 691 hp but on the dyno it was 20% less which is 553hp and they had to settle the lawsuit with 126 Norwegian owners dec 2016.

Last edited by hk 40; 07-15-2021 at 08:26 AM.. Reason: addendums
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Old 07-15-2021, 06:42 AM   #375
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Can you tell me and the forum what were looking at here CD? I know you're on top of motor design. So you can tell me wat this is used for? How do you use it to raise the efficiency and ease the production of a PMAC or BLDC machine that are much more power dense than any Induction or SRM motor. Since I know you know...Lets talk about motor production and the various difficulties encountered.


TIA
Hubert

Last edited by hk 40; 07-15-2021 at 07:50 AM..
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