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My performance goals and various questions associated therein

Unfortunately I dont have somewhere to host pics otherwise I could have uploaded a pic on our 940 with "basic VOC rally tuning" which basicaly is a B230FB (531) with milled head approx 0.015-0.02inch, H-cam freeflowing exhaust and EZK + LH2.4 tuning.
How can I be able to upload to the forum as I have seen some people do?
 
Don't port match. There's no restriction there. At all.

Port matching is increasing the size of the ports at the valves and smoothing it out. It?s a requirement for larger valves, otherwise there?s a step which gets in the way of flow.

Otherwise, I?ll be doing no port work.
 
Port matching is increasing the size of the ports at the valves and smoothing it out. It’s a requirement for larger valves, otherwise there’s a step which gets in the way of flow.

Otherwise, I’ll be doing no port work.

If I have my terminology right then you do bowl work when putting larger valves in to avoid a step or size mismatch. I recall from my 530 that the actual bowl was a couple mm larger in diameter than the hole machined into the head for the valve seat. So you may not end up with much of a shelf to clean up. I will go measure mine later to confirm this.

Port or gasket matching is widening the intake or exhaust port openings to match the hole in the gasket, which is usually a bit bigger than the actual intake port opening.

The restriction for most of these cars seems to be the intake manifold, not the ports on the head. One of the reasons why a 531 probably won't help all that much. Also there is the guideline that a 531 or ported 530 is only needed once you are making considerable power with a turbo or are running a cam with more than 12mm lift. I am not sure how much I trust that as a hard rule.

I am in the camp of polishing the heck out of the exhaust and CCs if you already have the head off and have a dremel with fine grit paper and a buffing wheel. There is contention about polishing the intake so I just left it at 120 grit with a somewhat rough finish. It will give you something to do if machine shops in your area are closed like they are here. Do it at your own peril, it is possible to screw something up. Luckily 530's are still cheap if you put out a call on the forums or have a pick n pull.
 
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It's really hard to screw up a head with a dremel. Die-grinder or a Foredom makes it much easier to find coolant passages or take too much material from a sensitive area.

Gasket matching the intake with a stock manifold will most likely hurt flow. Gasket matching the exhaust manifold and opening up the exhaust side of the head is a good idea.
 
A thing to note, you will likely not want to run MORE ignition timing than factory with whatever you end up doing(assuming thinner headgasket and higher compression).

Regarding the exhaust, ideally you'd replace the full system with the downpipe's 2-1 merge being redone to exit in a 2.25" or 2.5" pipe and continue that diameter all the way back. Not just installing IPD's "performance" 2.25" cat back exhaust has the disgusting crush underneath the axle.

Your injectors will probably be fine for now, but ideally the white bodied ones from the 16V motor will be right in their happy operating range if you switched to those instead. I don't know how LH2.2 will manage with them, though.

For port work, like mentioned above, there's no need to do port matching(gasket mating area), you don't want to create a bubble in the flow. You DO want to make sure the flow isn't running into any walls, though, so you could gasket match the inlet of the exhaust manifold if you want, or check to see it's necessary before bothering.

That being said, it is worth at least making sure the ports are clean and smooth with no rough edges. Like Shoestring mentioned, you won't get much power or peak flow, but my opinion is that every bit counts. Erland Cox recommended on our General Leif 405 head we remove the sharp edges under the exhaust valve seat and the exhaust short turn. On the intake side, it's usually good but you can blend the machined areas under the valve with the cast port.

If you are putting in larger valves, you need to open up the seats and ports to accommodate them. I'm not sure where your napkin math is coming from, but it's not that simple that you are going to get 6hp from putting in larger valves.

You're overthinking this low end torque thing. No factory cam is going to kill that to the extent you mention in your first post(gutless under 3k), unless you're going to an aftermarket camshaft designed more for racing. The K cam is not designed for racing and will have plenty of power at low rpm with the associated increased static compression. If you want it to idle like stock and maybe have similar peak power, get the ENEM V15 camshaft. The IPD Turbo camshaft will work as well, but won't make quite as much peak power because it has a higher lobe separation angle to work better with turbo cars. Is it a noticeable difference? I don't know. The factory A cam performed just as well as the IPD turbo cam when my NLMGG was basically stock. That may or may not have been due to the rest of the car's setup at the time, and/or the dyno.

I just want to point out again, that the 531 head has larger intake ports with lower velocity that will make it be less responsive and have less torque than the same setup(assuming a smaller factory camshaft, like the V) with a 530 head. The benefit of that larger intake port comes to play when you get to and over 12mm of lift. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=232036

I have the flow sheets if anyone's interested, but they're not much to look at.

[...]

And if it were me, I'd build the '93. I like the rear thrust bearing, it's got bigger rod journals, larger rods, squirters, etc. I'm probably gonna take a little heat here about that list being unnecessary for your application, but hell, you HAVE it. It's a no-brainer from that standpoint.
Flow sheets, yes, please! http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=329718

I'll second that you will want to build up the 1993 motor. Why not? Just because it wasn't running well doesn't mean that it's the engine's fault. If you are to rebuild a bottom end, build the 1993 so it lasts longer. You can put the 531 head on either, including using it on the current '86 block for now, while you one day rebuild the '93 block to swap it over at another time. Maybe at that time, you'll also want to do something different than you will with this first go around.

DYNO RUNS BELOW:
I have dyno runs of the A cam, the V15 NA cam, the D cam, the RSI Stage 1 and B cam when my NLMGG 244's engine was unopened, but they're all with an automatic, varying levels of intake airbox modification, varying exhaust system modifications(cat-back 2.5", not sure when I did it), not all on the same day and not all on the same dyno. See attached, including one run after a manual transmission swap, header(unnecessary,) H cam, a mildly ported, 46/38mm valved 530 head with .040" off and a .040" headgasket(Cometic MLS) for fun. I changed the scale of these dyno plots so you can try and make out the different runs easier. In reality, the differences are not that great! The first chart is with SAE correction turned on to in theory make them comparable runs, the second chart is uncorrected values.
 

Attachments

  • IPDT, A, D, V15, big valve+5spd+shaved H.jpg
    IPDT, A, D, V15, big valve+5spd+shaved H.jpg
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  • IPDT, A, D, V15, big valve+5spd+shaved H - uncorrected.jpg
    IPDT, A, D, V15, big valve+5spd+shaved H - uncorrected.jpg
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Okay, so here is my new plan as of now.

1. By and large, do the same things with the head. Change is: Shave it either 1 or 1.5, depending of if i can find a thin head gasket. (Are the only options the Cometic gaskets?)

2. Get a V15 cam, or IPD turbo if i am unable.

3. No port work beyond blending. Maybe a tiny bit of smoothing on exhaust, otherwise no.

4. Might be a good idea to get different intake manifold. Don’t really want to, but que sera sera.

5. I think I’m going to keep chrysler ignition, at least for testing the baseline.

6. Build the 93 if I ever decide to rebuild the engine. I’d personally prefer to keep the original engine, given how healthy it is for its age and to keep as much original as i can, so i might wimp out of this one.

7. IPD sport exhaust.

Also: holy **** that graph. Personally, i have to discount the H cam run just based on the different transmission, but still.
 
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A thing to note, you will likely not want to run MORE ignition timing than factory with whatever you end up doing(assuming thinner headgasket and higher compression).

Regarding the exhaust, ideally you'd replace the full system with the downpipe's 2-1 merge being redone to exit in a 2.25" or 2.5" pipe and continue that diameter all the way back. Not just installing IPD's "performance" 2.25" cat back exhaust has the disgusting crush underneath the axle.

Your injectors will probably be fine for now, but ideally the white bodied ones from the 16V motor will be right in their happy operating range if you switched to those instead. I don't know how LH2.2 will manage with them, though.

For port work, like mentioned above, there's no need to do port matching(gasket mating area), you don't want to create a bubble in the flow. You DO want to make sure the flow isn't running into any walls, though, so you could gasket match the inlet of the exhaust manifold if you want, or check to see it's necessary before bothering.

That being said, it is worth at least making sure the ports are clean and smooth with no rough edges. Like Shoestring mentioned, you won't get much power or peak flow, but my opinion is that every bit counts. Erland Cox recommended on our General Leif 405 head we remove the sharp edges under the exhaust valve seat and the exhaust short turn. On the intake side, it's usually good but you can blend the machined areas under the valve with the cast port.

If you are putting in larger valves, you need to open up the seats and ports to accommodate them. I'm not sure where your napkin math is coming from, but it's not that simple that you are going to get 6hp from putting in larger valves.

You're overthinking this low end torque thing. No factory cam is going to kill that to the extent you mention in your first post(gutless under 3k), unless you're going to an aftermarket camshaft designed more for racing. The K cam is not designed for racing and will have plenty of power at low rpm with the associated increased static compression. If you want it to idle like stock and maybe have similar peak power, get the ENEM V15 camshaft. The IPD Turbo camshaft will work as well, but won't make quite as much peak power because it has a higher lobe separation angle to work better with turbo cars. Is it a noticeable difference? I don't know. The factory A cam performed just as well as the IPD turbo cam when my NLMGG was basically stock. That may or may not have been due to the rest of the car's setup at the time, and/or the dyno.

I just want to point out again, that the 531 head has larger intake ports with lower velocity that will make it be less responsive and have less torque than the same setup(assuming a smaller factory camshaft, like the V) with a 530 head. The benefit of that larger intake port comes to play when you get to and over 12mm of lift. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=232036

Flow sheets, yes, please! http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=329718

I'll second that you will want to build up the 1993 motor. Why not? Just because it wasn't running well doesn't mean that it's the engine's fault. If you are to rebuild a bottom end, build the 1993 so it lasts longer. You can put the 531 head on either, including using it on the current '86 block for now, while you one day rebuild the '93 block to swap it over at another time. Maybe at that time, you'll also want to do something different than you will with this first go around.

DYNO RUNS BELOW:
I have dyno runs of the A cam, the V15 NA cam, the D cam, the RSI Stage 1 and B cam when my NLMGG 244's engine was unopened, but they're all with an automatic, varying levels of intake airbox modification, varying exhaust system modifications(cat-back 2.5", not sure when I did it), not all on the same day and not all on the same dyno. See attached, including one run after a manual transmission swap, header(unnecessary,) H cam, a mildly ported, 46/38mm valved 530 head with .040" off and a .040" headgasket(Cometic MLS) for fun. I changed the scale of these dyno plots so you can try and make out the different runs easier. In reality, the differences are not that great! The first chart is with SAE correction turned on to in theory make them comparable runs, the second chart is uncorrected values.

I find the V15 curves somewhat suspect given how far it lags behind the rest. Is that wheel or crank HP?
 
The head you will want to shave, only depending on the camshaft you run. If you are going to run a V15 or IPD Turbo camshaft, you may not want to shave that much off. I would do 1mm/.040" at the very most if those are the camshafts you are going to choose. Cometic is the only headgasket option. You can get them for about $125 shipped from various sources that I can tell you later.

No rush to get a different intake manifold, as that is something that is easily enough changed in the future if you aren't happy with the results. We can't quantify how much of a gain it'll be, really. You will at the very least want to get rid of the hot air intake and re-route that to be fully open and to cold air(looks stock still, basically). You could also cut open the front of the airbox, but you get hot air if using a/c and in traffic.

Ignition you can keep, as you can still twist the distributor. If you don't like the ignition timing or want real control over it, you need programmable engine management or LH2.4, minimum.

The IPD sport exhaust is not much improvement, but it won't hurt. Something custom costs more, but I would much rather recommend a Simons sport system from overseas as it'll be mandrel bent.

The H cam is just me showing you what you could have if you have a manual transmission, big valved 530 head with .040" off and LH2.4 with a full exhaust. The K cam made basically the same numbers but it has better drivability and idle under 1500-2000rpm or so.
 
Those are all wheel HP numbers. The V15 numbers are the oldest of my numbers, before any exhaust or cut open airbox mods and the valve clearances may have been off(which may or may not have made much difference). I also have some other dyno numbers that read about 20hp lower than expected, and I can't explain that.
 
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Yes, I’ll see if I can revive them by uploading the original images to the forum. One day. But, the info remains even if the graphs do not.

It’s interesting seeing all that old stuff. I’ll have to edit it some when I find time to upload new pictures.
 
I also sent a PM with a few questions, I'd move them over here but for some reason Turbobricks won't let me see messages I've sent.

Edit: I've figured out how to get them saved, but any messages I've sent before just now are lost.

Edit edit: I'll just put them down as I remember:

I've heard that there is minimal squish affect if the gasket is any thicker than 0.042". Is this true?

How thick of a gasket should I get? What's the min/max of the range of thickness?

What's the take on Somender Groove theory? Would it be worth trying out?
 
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Hi

I think you have to go back to the drawing board...

What you are asking for is this :

A stockish engine that pulls like a diesel and has 160-170 hp....

There are only two viable routes to this goal.

1 Stock turbo engine that still has T cam and slightly upgraded exhaust, supporting hardware like intercooler etc.

or

2 A heavily modified D24TIC with lots of upgrades and headaches :omg::roll:


Whatever you do with a stockish NA engine and a OEM cam will place you firmly in between 130-140 hp at best

YS
JB
 
I also sent a PM with a few questions, I'd move them over here but for some reason Turbobricks won't let me see messages I've sent.
Sorry, I didn't have a chance to respond last night. You can see your sent messages by clicking on the List Messages link on the left side of your Control Panel, then once there you can see in the top/middle of your page the Folder Controls area with a pull down menu that lets you select Inbox folder or Sent Items folder. Maybe that's only for members who have donated, but I don't think so.

Here's your PM:
"I've found Cometic gaskets, all of the thin ones are about $117 dollars, so going thinner really has no effect in cost, meanwhile they have a 0.140" headgasket that costs 200? They're quite expensive, considering factory headgaskets cost $20, but I guess that if people are willing to buy and they're the only provider, margin is good.

I've seen that having a headgasket of 0.042" or thicker means that any squish produced is meaningless and doesn't affect the detonation, what do you think I should aim for?

As well, what do you think of the Somender Groove Theory?"
To which I say, yes, they are the only supplier that I am aware of for variable thickness gaskets. The thicker gaskets use more material, so they cost more.

The headgasket alone does not tell you what your piston to cylinder head clearance will be. You need to measure how much your pistons are sticking up out of the block, and then subtract that from the headgasket thickness to get your clearance. Generally speaking, you want less than .040" clearance between the two in order to get the benefit of improved mixture and more thorough combustion. A .040" gasket will get you there with just about any B230 as the pistons are USUALLY up out of the block. Sometimes as high as .010", other times less than .004". Some people have run .027" gaskets on B230s without issue, but I'm not sure how many of them have rev'd over 6000rpm and that definitely puts them at less clearance than "recommended". Think of it this way, the less clearance you have, the more of the combustible mixture is going to be inside the actual combustion chamber and get burnt. You just don't want the pistons hitting the head. See next post.

For Somender Singh grooves, you MAY see some benefit with detonation resistance and idle quality if going to a K cam or larger, but there's no guarantee. I have been there and done that in two engines and am not sold on suggesting it, at least with a single groove as I have done.

What you are asking for is this :

A stockish engine that pulls like a diesel and has 160-170 hp....
[...]
Whatever you do with a stockish NA engine and a OEM cam will place you firmly in between 130-140 hp at best
I don't know if he wants it to pull like a diesel or not. He stated he doesn't want it to be dead under 3k rpm, and no factory camshaft will be.

As far as the HP goals go, he's talking crank hp, like you mention, not wheel hp like it sounds like you're writing about. The stock B230FB/FX does over 130hp(not whp), so adding some compression, an exhaust, some port work/bigger valves and intake mods will give a higher figure. And you know I've made over 150hp with factory cams(130whp+).

I'd even say that our General Leif engine pulls very well from low rpm with the basically stock 405 head(same intake ports as the 531, but different chamber and spark plug location). See attached dyno sheet a few posts down of that.
 
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NA performance links...

Here's a post to link to in the future for NA performance discussions with at least some decent info. Some of the info is older, but mostly it's good and worth reading.

Squish/quench/thin headgasket/piston-head clearance discussions:
Building a tight squish motor: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=110700
Shaving the head for bigger bangs: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=348598
What's the thinnest Cometic you've run?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=274989
Any problems running thinner headgasket for quench?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=251784

Camshaft discussions:
VX worth the cost?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=266225
A cam, B cam, IPD T cam, D cam: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=150954
V vs VX: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=277707
H or K: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=275416
A or B: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=341814
A or VX3: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342490
Effects of changing camshaft timing: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=209648
RSI NA cam in action: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=164071
B21 with RSI NA cam: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=266267
Redblock aftermarket cam experiences: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=333776
We measured redblock cams: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=337956

General NA performance:
This thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=354436
Emissions and NA performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=353970
How much power can you get NA: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=272196
531 worth it on NA?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=275133
Coach me on NA build: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=290198
NA power: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=337311
Drifts N Lifts header test(watch all the engine related videos): http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342098
531 on NA auto: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342456
World Record B230 Power: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=348117
LH 3.1 NA stuff: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=349476
Streetable 8V vs 16V: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=347900
B21F/K-jet manifold on B230: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=267011
What kind of exhaust?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=252103
Rebuilding a B21F for modest gains: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=244434
General performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250869
General torque/performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=245008
Camshaft selection, head height/shaving, etc.: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=152983
Intake plenum: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=153339
NA upgrade order: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=145344
Cam choices for high compression: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=140759

And there's more, but that's a good start.
 
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Smoregesborg: where in eastern MA are we talking?

Why? Wanna come over and test drive my brick? :lol:

For Somender Singh grooves, you MAY see some benefit with detonation resistance and idle quality if going to a K cam or larger, but there's no guarantee. I have been there and done that in two engines and am not sold on suggesting it, at least with a single groove as I have done.

I don't know if he wants it to pull like a diesel or not. He stated he doesn't want it to be dead under 3k rpm, and no factory camshaft will be.

I don't want the engine to pull like a diesel, I know that means there would be no top end. I just want it to be able to cruise in the T5's 0.68 fifth gear on the highway without having to go over 90, and get decent mileage. I want it to be the ultimate daily driver is all.

I think I'll go with 0.036" gasket, and Somender grooves? From my personal take, their biggest benefit is that low-end lugging is reduced, and that's a *big* issue I have right now.
 
I just want it to be able to cruise in the T5's 0.68 fifth gear on the highway without having to go over 90, and get decent mileage.
What rear end ratio do you have?

My B21 cruised fine at 70mph with a 3.91 rear and a T5 0.68 5th gear. Downshifting to 4th for a hill here and there is nbd.
 
What rear end ratio do you have?

My B21 cruised fine at 70mph with a 3.91 rear and a T5 0.68 5th gear. Downshifting to 4th for a hill here and there is nbd.

I have a stock 3.31 rear.

I mention tall ratios because I they're the big reason I don't want to ruin bottom end performance. No bottom end = no fifth gear highway cruising. I can do that right now with little issue, and I don't want to lose that.
 
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